The Lost Interview: Led Zeppelin’s Page and Plant

I Couldn't Throw It Out, Season 3, Episode 32
The Lost Interview: Led Zeppelin's Jimmy Page and Robert Plant

Michael Small:
Hello and welcome to I Couldn't Throw It Out, the podcast where we talk about the treasures we've saved and then try to throw them out. On this episode, I share for the very first time my interview tapes with Led Zeppelin's Robert Plant and Jimmy Page. When I met them in 1995, they were recording and touring together for the first time in 14 years. Here's what Robert told me about their collaboration.

Robert Plant:
We can be quite abrasive characters, each of us. But we'll kick the shit out of each other with dialogue just to get to the right point to make sparks fly.

Michael Small:
To hear more from the duo that changed rock and roll forever, keep listening.

[Song excerpt begins]

I couldn't throw it out
I had to scream and shout
Before I turned to dust I've got to throw it out

[Song excerpt ends]

Michael Small:
This is an unusual episode because my co-host Sally Libby couldn't join us. But I'm happy to say that there's someone here to save the day. It's the mighty George Meyer. He is most famous to me as my excellent friend, though the rest of you may know him as a star writer for The Simpsons and other TV shows, movies, magazines, and plays. Welcome, George.

George Meyer:
Thank you, Michael. Nice to be here.

Michael Small:
Today, your mission is to help me decide the fate of some treasures I've saved related to the band Led Zeppelin.

George Meyer:
On the Ides of March, no less.

Michael Small:
Yeah, could get dangerous.

Michael Small:
Back in 1995, I interviewed Jimmy Page and Robert Plant for People Magazine, but the article was never published for reasons I'll explain later. So when we play the tapes on this episode, it will be the first time anyone has heard them. And when I was looking for someone to join me today, I remembered that one of the most fun nights, honestly, of my whole life was when you, George, took me to my first and only Grateful Dead concert, and you had the set list in advance, and we moved all around the theater to be in the right place for each song.

George Meyer:
My goodness. I didn't remember that part.

Michael Small:
Yeah. So when I was thinking who was into music, I sent you a text to ask if you might be a fan of Led Zeppelin. And where were you coming from when I wrote that text?

George Meyer:
Well, I was coming from the film, the IMAX film, Becoming Led Zeppelin, I think it's called.

Michael Small:
Which is just unbelievable, the timing. It's in theaters now. I had seen it. Now you've seen it. Did you have any reaction to it?

George Meyer:
I thought it was going to be good, but it was much better than I expected. I mean, those people really worked hard on it. And it's great. There's so much new information. There's so much wisdom being imparted by the band members.

Michael Small:
It kind of blows my mind that Robert Plant is 76 and Jimmy Page is 81.

George Meyer:
No!

Michael Small:
Yes.

George Meyer:
Say it ain't so, Mike.

Michael Small:
They shouldn't have grown up. I don't want to ruin all the surprises in the movie, but I was particularly surprised by a few things like the fact that Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones both played guitar on the James Bond theme for the movie Goldfinger.


George Meyer:
Wasn't that wild and that wonderful version that Shirley Bassey did in the film?

Michael Small:
She was fantastic. And then another surprise is John Paul Jones, bass player for Led Zeppelin, also played on Lulu's To Sir with Love.

George Meyer:
That is a real mind bender.

Michael Small:
He was versatile. Thinking back for a minute, did you when you were younger have any Led Zeppelin albums?

George Meyer:
I didn't until Led Zeppelin 4. You know, I try to explain to my daughter sometimes that you couldn't just buy every album that you wanted. And she said, well, why? Well, because you didn't have money. And they were pretty expensive.

Michael Small:
Yeah. Well, I had Led Zeppelin II. And I was really stuck on the song, Whole Lotta Love. When he said, "Shake for me girl, I want to be your backdoor man." I thought that meant he was a secret lover who had to sneak in through the back door of the house. 'Cause I couldn't see any other meaning for it.

George Meyer:
I think that's part of the meaning. It's the person who leaves through the back door when the husband gets home. But, it's a lubricious song, no doubt about it.

Michael Small:
I actually want to confess that I think I stayed a virgin because of that song, 'cause it made sex sound so scary to me. I was like, I can't take this. Putting that on hold.

George Meyer:
So all that like weird kind of thereminy stuff in the middle of that you thought that was part of sex. Yeah, that would scare me too.

Michael Small:
Anyway, I didn't get any other Led Zeppelin albums because I went more towards the, you know, the Joni Mitchell direction. And in 1995, when I got assigned to report the story for People, I was not a huge fan, but I did my research and I'm curious to hear if anything I discovered is surprising to you. So I'm going to give you a little bit of a test here, Led Zeppelin knowledge. Do you remember when they were formed and or how they got their name?

George Meyer:
I think 1968?

Michael Small:
Yes.

George Meyer:
And their name, I believe, came from a joke. Was that Keith Moon?

Michael Small:
My gosh.

George Meyer:
Good. Hey. Because he thought they would go over like a lead balloon or something like that, right?

Michael Small:
Exactly. Now, John Entwistle felt like he said it, but people do side more with Keith Moon.

George Meyer:
It sounds more like his sense of humor.

Michael Small:
And you know, he was kind of right because the first album got panned.

George Meyer:
Yeah, and in fact I remember they were annoyed that Rolling Stone didn't like them for several albums. They thought they were kind of a tepid blues rock band, I guess. Which I don't understand at all, but whatever.

Michael Small:
But of course they had the last laugh because if you had to guess how many albums they sold worldwide, these numbers are a little shaky, but...

George Meyer:
Shake for me, girl!

Michael Small:
Not that again.

George Meyer:
I don't know. I'll say 60 million.

Michael Small:
300 million worldwide.

George Meyer:
Yeah. Whoa. Man.

Michael Small:
And you already have given us a hint that you know the answer to the next question, which is, do you have any thoughts about which album was most popular?

George Meyer:
Well, I would imagine the one with Stairway to Heaven, which was Led Zeppelin 4, right?

Michael Small:
You are absolutely right. You're like totally winning in this quiz.

George Meyer:
Well, I'm a fan. Love the band.

Michael Small:
Well, they sold 24 million copies in the US of that album and 38 million worldwide.

George Meyer:
And with that strange cover.

Michael Small:
Yeah.

George Meyer:
If you were trying to have a cover that would repel sales, it might be that cover. It would be hard to come up with like a less sexy cover. I mean, it's a peasant with some a bundle of sticks or something, isn't it?

Michael Small:
Now, here's another question for you. Who do you think sold more studio records, Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin?

George Meyer:
Well, now I'm going to say Led Zeppelin.

Michael Small:
Correct. And now do you know when and why Led Zeppelin disbanded?

George Meyer:
I would imagine it was shortly after John Bonham died.

Michael Small:
That's correct. And Bonham, who was the drummer, died in the year...

George Meyer:
1980.

Michael Small:
So I guess this is why you get an A+. You got everything.

George Meyer:
My teachers would be so proud.

Michael Small:
You learned nothing except the history of Led Zeppelin. So then for 14 years they didn't play together. And it was a big deal when they decided to work together again. And do you know what musical institution brought them back together?

George Meyer:
Was it the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? Live Aid?

Michael Small:
Phew. So glad I gave you one you couldn't answer. It was MTV that brought them back together.

George Meyer:
OK.

Michael Small:
They were asked to record an unplugged episode. So they recorded an album called No Quarter: Page and Plant Unledded. It went platinum. Did you ever hear that album?

George Meyer:
No, I don't think so. In general, I was opposed to the idea of unplugging electric guitars.

Michael Small:
What I can tell you about that album is that they found a different type of excess. They filmed video to go with the album, I guess, and they filmed in a public square in Morocco. They filmed on a ruined quarry in Wales. And they filmed in a London concert hall backed by the London Metropolitan Orchestra. Singers who joined them in Morocco were Gnawa musicians. And then they went on a six month tour of the US and Europe. But the Moroccan musicians didn't show up. So they got Egyptian musicians, including a violinist. And as they got to every town, they recruited a different orchestra. So they had to get that organized. And they took on a hurdy-gurdy player. And the hurdy-gurdy is a stringed instrument that goes back to the Renaissance.

George Meyer:
I do remember I saw that tour I think at the LA Forum maybe.

Michael Small:
Wow, you actually saw it also.

George Meyer:
I did, yeah. And the Kashmir was really gorgeous. It stretched out with those wonderful Middle Eastern musicians.

Michael Small:
You may not remember this since it was 30 years ago, but they added three musicians, all of them much younger. Porl Thompson, who had played with the band The Cure.

George Meyer:
Interesting.

Michael Small:
Michael Lee, who I think had played with The Cult, and then a bass player named Charlie Jones. There was some controversy. There were a couple of odd details. For one thing, they didn't tell John Paul Jones they were doing this. They got someone else to play his parts. And the album was titled No Quarter and he's one of the composers of No Quarter.

George Meyer:
That's right, because it has that great keyboard part.

Michael Small:
Yeah. Another weird thing is that the tour was surprisingly commercial. It was sponsored by...

George Meyer:
Lever Brothers.

Michael Small:
Miller Genuine Draft.

George Meyer:
Oh, God, really?

Michael Small:
And they had a traveling museum bus with memorabilia, including a shirt that Jimmy wore at a 1979 concert. I hope it was laundered.

George Meyer:
Wow.

Michael Small:
And it was valued at something like $5,000.

George Meyer:
That's kind of like instant nostalgia. I mean, it's a little too close to the real thing.

Michael Small:
Yeah. Well, it was 14 years later. I guess. yeah. Oh, can you imagine my shirts 14 years later? I don't know. They'd pay you $5,000 to keep them out of the bus. It was interesting to hear their manager, Bill Curbishly, talk about them.

George Meyer:
Yeah. And I think he managed The Who as well.

Michael Small:
I think he did. Yeah. That's one of the things about reporting these stories is that some of the most enjoyable people you meet are around the fringes and you never get to share those things in your article. So it's fun to be able to share it here.

[Interview begins]

Bill Curbishly:
They've mellowed out by a bit, but they're never going to be saints. The main thing was to get them to drop any resentments they had towards each other because when they split there was quite a few resentments there and they got bigger and bigger and bigger and I'd been urging Robert to go back and work with Jimmy for a couple of years and he'd been resisting it because he felt that to go back to Zeppelin was a backwards step. They started working together and it was amazing. It was like putting your hand into an old golf glove you know it just fitted perfectly. It just fitted perfectly.

They wrote about eight songs in two weeks, which is incredible. But anyway, I soon realized that I was dealing with two totally different personalities. Robert is really the reluctant star. He really is. For all of his posturing and everything up on the stage. He's very much the reluctant star in the sense that he really wants to do the wacky things or the left-footed things or the artistic things rather than the obvious. Which sometimes presents problems because it's either impractical or uneconomical. He also is the kind of person who wants to do things just on spec. You know, he'll just like suddenly do a complete turnaround and want to do something just that little bit. Jimmy's the kind of guy who wants to get things really right. He wants to get them perfect. He's the guy who went and did like 35 cuts of a Zeppelin album before he was happy with the cut. You know? So that's how he did it.

Although they're different, they also meet somewhere in the middle. That's why during the Zeppelin days, they were able to travel around the Middle East, traveled around Africa, North Africa, did all those things together, India. They do have an empathy that meets somewhere. But somebody said to me, what's it like managing these two guys? So I said, a good analogy is that you're walking down a street. You see this guy and his wife or this guy and a woman having an argument, having a fight, you know, on street corner. And suddenly the guy punches the woman. So you run over and you say, "Hey, you can't do that." You know, and you pull them apart and they both start beating you. So I now have to make sure that I have the two of them together when I do things, because if you talk to them separately, they say certain things or agree with you on certain things and then they change their minds when they're together.

[Recorded interview ends]

Michael Small:
George, any thoughts about what Bill told me?

George Meyer:
He was really articulate, I thought.

Michael Small:
He seemed like quite a character. So when I got assigned to do this story, I was living in San Francisco. was around the time that we went to see The Grateful Dead. At that time, they definitely had had some rave reviews in other parts of the country. I had interviewed Metallica previously, so I somehow got in touch with Lars Ulrich of Metallica, and he said, "I think they're doing this respectably and properly." So he was a fan of what they were doing. But the day I went to interview them, they got one of the worst pans I've ever seen. Joel Selvin wrote an article in the San Francisco Chronicle with this title, A Leaden Zeppelin Reunion. He said things that I really don't agree with. He said they "had difficulty disguising the more crass concerns that occasioned this milk run of a reunion tour." And he said "they sounded exactly like a Led Zeppelin cover band."

George Meyer:
Oh dear.

Michael Small:
I cannot quite figure out why they agreed to do an interview for People. I mean, they didn't need the money. I had a good time. There was part of my time that was unusual, which is that they were staying in the Fairmont Hotel in San Francisco, which is a nice place. And they booked a room for me to wait for them and they thought I was going to interview them in this room. And so it was, like, palatial. I swear it had, like, 20 foot ceilings and, like, oil paintings and huge windows looking out over San Francisco and a large bedroom and a bathroom. So I don't know, I think I got there in the morning and they kept saying, Oh, it's gonna be a few more hours, few more hours. So I ordered room service and took a wonderful shower and then got into bed and took a nap. And I had a whole day, like spa day in the Fairmont waiting to talk to them.

George Meyer:
You can check that off your bucket list.

Michael Small:
Yeah. They weren't going to let me talk to interview them together. So I had one hour exactly with each of them. I had read Hammer of the Gods, which was certainly unauthorized biography of the band and it was based a lot on interviews with their former tour manager, Richard Cole. Now I think along with Led Zeppelin, a lot of people say a lot of it was untrue, but it is the source of many myths about Led Zeppelin, about the craziness of throwing TVs out the window and doing obscene things with sharks and stuff like that. After reading that book, I expected somebody really bombastic and I was surprised when I talked to Robert Plant. We talked for an hour, but I am sharing about 36 minutes of that and I'm going to play it now. So take a listen.

[Recorded interview begins]

Michael Small:
Starting with the music. Is there anything in terms of your voice that you think you're singing differently in some way? You're trying to interpret things differently. How are you keeping it interesting for yourself?

Robert Plant:
That's a good question because I'm sure that there are a lot of performers who wouldn't really have an answer because a lot of the thing about this touring and recording and this lifestyle generally is that this is what you do, full stop. So a lot of it is kind of on remote control, especially when songs are preordained. They have a beginning and an end. But since I've been graced with a degree of maturity and left part of the grand order of cock rock to its own sort of masonic order, I've really become interested in other styles of singing. The world of rock is so kind of confined and restrictive that if you just wanted to be eloquent within that single zone, there wouldn't be a great deal of achievement left because I think I've kind of covered it. But I've spent a lot of time listening to the way that other people sing, male and female. And I've traveled quite extensively in, especially in Morocco over the last 15, 20 years. With the great sort of sudden onslaught of world beat music, especially in Europe, and with the world getting smaller and smaller, every kind of, every form of radio now, whether it's hip hop, house, acid music, rock, whatever it is, the kind of Eastern tone is there. And I've been very inspired by it for a long, long, long time. And so you might have noticed at the concerts, I do a lot of quarter-tone singing where these notes aren't generally rested upon in the western scale. But I use them as little filigrees and twists and twirls and punctuation marks in between what was once a normal part of a Led Zeppelin song. So for me, now I'm trying to become more fluent so that I can actually dip in between all the notes that everybody knows and gives me a whole new way of interpretation.

Michael Small:
Is there a particular inspiration vocally of a person we might not be familiar with from the East or somewhere else?

Robert Plant:
Yeah, there's a woman called Omkaul Sum. O-M-K-A-U-L-S-O-M.

Michael Small:
And she's from what country?

Robert Plant:
She's from Egypt. She had a 50 year recording career and her voice had pitch dropped and the tones became lower. She still has such an amazing control and she's so highly revered. In effect, it's unbeknown to the Western world, but she sold more records than Elvis. Because you're so insulated in America geographically, you have no idea how quickly Europe and North Africa and the Middle East and everywhere, the whole homogenous blend of peoples is, well, it's what it is. It's a patchwork quilt everywhere in the world. Well, you've got your own patchwork quilt in America, which is beautiful too. So the musicality of two or three generations back, the majority of people in this country had a music form which was part of their culture and their ancestry, which is so different to what they now listen to or now find to be the American music. And I'm sure a lot of them can remember grandfather tapping his, whistling out some beer march from Bavaria or some beautiful romantic ballad from Italy.

Michael Small:
You used to talk a lot about light and dark. When you say what was special about your music, you would say there were these lights and darks and that was what you're aiming for. Is that still something you're thinking about or is that something from the past?

Robert Plant:
No. At my age, with the experiences that I've already been blessed with, one way or another, I can only be doing this for one reason, and that is because I want to excite myself. It's hellishly difficult to call a tour on any level an exciting experience. It's unusual. And it's quite exotic. It's not really that exciting. At times it can be quite mundane. And the sort of personalities within it, sometimes it's like Mutiny on the Bounty. Everybody's so close to making some poor bastard walk the fucking plank. Jimmy and I aren't allowed to walk the plank or even be considered. Although we are probably the prime suspects. So I guess I must keep excitement. And to do that, I have to throw so much of myself into concerts and shows that I'm virtually exhausted at the end. Really have to make the light and shade, the happy-go-lucky singing sing to dramatic, physical operatic gestures. It's kind of a very tortured Swan Lake at times. And I have to mean it. If I'm not meaning it, I might as well not bother, because I'm not satisfying any financial sort of requirements, you know? And I could use my time well, more or less anywhere now. So yeah, the dynamics are crucial because, and the thing is, with all these musicians, I mean, we really must be the most colorful show that there is around musically and performance-wise. I mean, to have a hurdy-gurdy and an Egyptian solo violinist in the middle of a show that includes the, probably the wildest rhythm section on the road and such an eclectic guitarist as Porl from the Cure mixed with the two sort of dinosaurs growling around looking for the luck to share the last leaf in the diluvian forest. I mean, it's quite an experience.

Michael Small:
I don't want to annoy you with this question, but I think I want to have you answer it rather than me answer it. In things that I've read, they said, well, why don't they do Stairway to Heaven? And can you answer that succinctly?

Robert Plant:
Well, if there is anything of a rebel left in me, I guess I cannot just go on the road for the sake of the people who pay the tickets. I'm here to please myself primarily. And although it was a cute, a pretty song at a certain point in time, lyrically, which is my responsibility, it's not relevant to me anymore. Whereas Kashmir, in all its newfound glory, certainly is lyrically and emotionally and musically.

Michael Small:
When you're up there, do you feel 2,000 eyes on you? Are you completely unaware of them? Does that like charge you? Do you pick up a charge from it?

Robert Plant:
Well, I've found that...  When I was a kid, I used to choose various countenances and kind of just meld with them, blend so that if it was dramatic, I'd check it out to see how it was affecting the person. Then I found out that this was an illness. After 20 years, I went, this is silly. That person's going to get in their car, they're going to go home, they're going to brush their teeth, go to bed. And this strange relationship that lasted without any words spoken, I do develop these kind of relationships with faces. But most of the time I'm singing completely within myself and I'm gone. Now that I've found out that I'm a poor man's dervish and I spin and twist and reel, a lot of the time I'm quite giddy. I sometimes come to a halt staring lovingly at the keyboard computer and I have no idea where the microphone is and I have to wait until the giddiness stops and then fumble. I usually know that if I count up to about 15 when I'm spinning I've got just enough time to get back in time for the next verse. But one day I may miss.

Michael Small:
That's funny. I wrote down dervish or something when I was watching.

Robert Plant:
Well, they go very, very slowly for long time. I go very fast for a short time.

Michael Small:
Just talking about what you were saying about how it's exhausting to be doing this with such intensity. After the show, is it likely that you'll stay up till 5 a.m.? Is it likely you'll go to bed? Is it likely you'll have a party or is it different every night?

Robert Plant:
Well...  It's different every night. I'm not the party animal really. I've become much more singular and a lot less group orientated over the years because I've had lots of musicians around me since the demise of Zeppelin. I've had three major solo bands peppered with rather remarkable people. If you keep changing the people around you, then you don't really have a whole kind of cyclopedia of previous atrocities to use as the sort of, you know, the back cloth for the next episode. But you're always dealing with new people. And I always made sure in my solo career that I had a younger, much younger musician. Because I wanted a vital repartee. I didn't want any sort of lounging back into days of golden yore and all that crap. Do you remember in 1968 when Rod Stewart did so-and-so in Schenectady? It's not my idea of a night out. So basically when I finish working on stage, I'm not living the same lifestyle. A lot of the flippence has gone. I generally don't go out at all. If I go out, it's such a bloody effort because there's so many people wanting to say that they saw me in 1972 just before they got married or whatever. However much I'm flattered by their memory being so good, my patience doesn't last very well. It's a bit of a chore, being in a roped off, cordoned off part of a club with champagne on ice from the boss of the club and a few leggy models who just left the mud wrestling around the corner, you know, blinking doe-fully at you. Like Betty Boops on acid. So I generally come back and read. What I do in between shows is more important than what I do after them. I see America. They used to call me Rand McNally, you know. I like to go into the back woods, whether it's the Carolinas, the Outer Banks. On this current trip through America, I've been through the Mississippi Delta and across into Arkansas, a lot of places which to me hold some significance. The final resting places of Sonny Boy Williamson and Charley Patton in the back of nowhere, dirt tracks in Mississippi, around the back of Tutwiler, south of Clarksdale. I mean... That's adventure, you know? finding that in Rand McNally, often they have to do it new every year because of so many new roads.

Michael Small:
Are you able to go down the back roads and get out of the car and have a little bit less of the, I saw you in 1972? 

Robert Plant:
Oh yeah, because where I go, it's just back woods Georgia or wherever it is. And when you pull into a town that's just got one diner and a gas station and some quizzical people. It's quite easy to say that you're a college lecturer traveling through on the way to Memphis or whatever. You don't have to say who you are. And the old girl who's serving up the very, very dry bacon doesn't care anyway.

Michael Small:
Was there on this trip a particular incident that would be the kind of incident you would call home to tell somebody about?

Robert Plant:
Well, when I was a kid, I was greatly inspired by Sonny Boy Williamson. And in fact, Bring It on Home on Led Zeppelin II is by Sonny Boy Williamson. And when I was a kid, two German promoters used to bring a lot of black artists to Europe, the remnants of the blues players who by then in the early 1960s were in their 60s and 70s years old. But they had a charm and a charisma and the last death throes of something that came right the way around from Africa. And I went to see Sonny Boy Williamson once when I was a kid and I was in the men's room at Birmingham Town Hall in England. And I was relieving myself and next to me stood Sunny Boy Williamson who was probably about 14 or 15 inches taller than me at the time. And he had a hell of a countenance. He could play harmonica by shoving the harmonica lengthways into his mouth. And without using hands at all he could play a tune. He could play a small piccolo harmonica with his nose, and he wore a bowler hat and a harlequin suit with a briefcase and umbrella. And he'd been really taken by the British public. He worked with The Yardbirds and The Animals and he became really like England embraced him. And I'm standing next to him relieving myself and I said, "Mr. Williamson, such a great honor to meet you. And I want to tell you that I'm a singer too and your harmonica playing has inspired me to take up the harmonica, and, you know, can you give me any advice?" And he turned around and he said, "Yeah, fuck off son." So I went to see his grave. It was quite important for me to catch up with him because I had stood there dribbling down my trousers, absolutely deflated, college kid. Going, wow, I've really made it now. Perhaps I'm not going to be any good after all. So when I got to Tutwiler, Mississippi, and I went down the back road and I found the old church. And I found the gravestone that had been dedicated by a guy from New Jersey with the names of all his songs, some of his songs and a picture of him indented into the stone. Right back in the trees, back off the road where the snakes live. And I got there and all around the stone, were lots of old rusty harmonicas. And I just happened to have a big shiny A harp and I just played a little bit of one of his tunes, smashed it on the top of his grave...

Michael Small:
And said, "Fuck off, son."

Robert Plant:
Yeah, yeah. Now it's my turn. Bless him, he was a great inspiration.

Michael Small:
Wow, that's a great story. In terms of the rest of your routine when you're not being Rand McNally and not on the road, it looks like you're working out with somebody. Is that correct?

Robert Plant:
No, I just have a very ambitious girlfriend. That's about it, really. Now the rest is done, it's all done by mirrors.

Michael Small:
Come on.

Robert Plant:
No, I don't work out at all.

Michael Small:
You're doing some kind of meditation practice though or something?

Robert Plant:
Just yoga warm-up exercises because I don't think it's anything to do with the galloping years but I just think that you have to stay pretty supple to be able to just go from nothing to hurling myself around because really I mean I'm older than Billy Joel and Phil Collins and I really need to sit down for a bit. In fact, my manager, said to me about three or four years ago on my solo work, said, in his East London brogue, he said, I want to think now about slowing it down a bit and perhaps changing the way I look and, you know, stop trying to be the wild boy on the edge of the tracks, just with one foot in the modern world and one foot in the classics. And I said, well, I'm sorry, Bill, but all you're gonna get is what it feels like on the day. But now that we've teamed up and Thelma's back with Louise, I'm twirling and going even crazier than I did before. And he's got no complaints now. All the shows are sold out and we can do three or four, five nights in each town according to the promoters. And now he just goes, Twirl you fool.

Michael Small:
I guess that's your workout really.

Robert Plant:
But you can't go on stage -- you've got to stretch a bit and stuff, otherwise you...

Michael Small:
But you have a trainer or somebody traveling with you, don't you?

Robert Plant:
No, Simon does yoga. And he makes sure that all my federal express packages go to the right places. My books. I mean, here in San Francisco, it's like paradise with City Lights Books.

Michael Small:
There are great bookstores here. You can get anything. I see the Hindi Urdu phrase book. Are you using that?

Robert Plant:
Yes, I am.

Michael Small:
Because your girlfriend speaks Hindi or Urdu?

Robert Plant:
Well, because some of the musicians I want to work with in the future are Hindi speaking. Because this voice thing I'm getting into, I'd like to go to India and work and maybe do a couple of things with those orchestras that work on the Indian movies. I mean, they're so brilliant, so shrill. And I'd really like to mix my voice.

Michael Small:
Seems appropriate.

Robert Plant:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
I noticed it in a lot of places that I've been when you've been around, there's been incense. Is that something that's pretty constant for you?

Robert Plant:
Well, it's been ever since I could afford it. I mean, some people like to sing with no underwear. Some people want a room full of women. I just need the incense, kind of need the... It just helps to create an environment that, surprisingly enough, in the middle of all the hooting and, you know, baseball caps flying up in the air, does a little bit of kind of another world around me.

Michael Small:
Is there anything you can tell me about some of the things you've collected here? Are these things that go with you wherever you go?

Robert Plant:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
And are these like petrified snails or is that some kind of...

Robert Plant:
Yeah, yeah, they're from Morocco. That is dinosaur shit. I got it from a guy in Colorado who said, "Here, if you think you're significant, look at this." I just surround myself with a load of symbols because they're pleasing to the eye. I mean, it's a pretty aggressive life. So it's nice to surround yourself with one or two gentle things which will go into a suitcase.

Michael Small:
When you're on the road, do you try to eat healthfully? Do you have some rules that you follow?

Robert Plant:
Well, my only concern from the minute I wake up until the minute I go on stage is stamina. And it's really important. I find that the day is peppered with like troughs where you lose energy troughs, you know? So what I do is I don't care if I don't eat at all until about four o'clock, go mad with carbohydrates, because I want to make sure I can spin and twirl. The only time I'm on any kind of gastronomic connoisseur really is probably when I'm off the road, because if I eat food that's too rich, it really gets in the way of my performance. Although I really am a great fan of very well cooked East Indian food, you know, I mean, it's very good for the blood and with using all the different spices and the masalas. It really does. It is really very, very good for you. If I want to really enjoy myself, I'll have a huge curry for breakfast. Brunch. So by the time I come to work, it's doing its job. And it's pumping.

Michael Small:
Can you give me a little idea of what you've done while you were here these three days?

Robert Plant:
I went to Napa Valley. In that area around there, I find the countryside so pleasing. If I could live anywhere in America, I guess that's about where it would be, that kind of area. But it'd have to be a further 60 miles from the city and 20 miles from the nearest hippie you ever saw a Zeppelin show. That's not going to be easy though, is it?

Michael Small:
No, not here. I also wanted to ask you, are you doing any sports still? Do you play tennis or anything like that?

Robert Plant:
Yeah, I play tennis. Well, I've got my stuff, but it's no point playing on a gig day. You get too tired. Tennis, cycling, lot of hill walking in Britain. There's certain places that you can go where you can walk and you get accommodation at night time. I can't stop anywhere but in a pub. If I don't see Johnny Walker by eight o'clock on a non-working day.

Michael Small:
So you haven't sworn off alcohol.

Robert Plant:
No.

Michael Small:
It seems like you quit smoking. Is that right? Or did you quit long ago?

Robert Plant:
Long ago, yeah. Well, actually, to be perfectly frank, I've started occasionally smoking a cigarette after a show. The worst thing in the world for anybody to do is to get into self-inflicted rewards. But, I have a cigarette occasionally.

Michael Small:
Have you been for any counseling lately or at all?

Robert Plant:
No. You don't need counseling when you're in a combination of personalities such as this. We counsel each other unwittingly constantly because there are so many people who've been casualties to so many extreme phenomena. Think about it. Jimmy did about everything he possibly could until he couldn't do it anymore. And I've been a compulsive liar all my life. I think if you're in a band situation and you need a counselor, then you're in the wrong band.

Michael Small:
Going back to the sort of extracurricular question, when you talk about hill walking, is your main home in London or do you live in the country somewhere?

Robert Plant:
Well, over the years, I've kind of ended up living in London mostly, but when I don't want to be there, I escaped the first opportunity.

Michael Small:
Do you have like a London house and one other house? Do you have a whole lot of house to fill?

Robert Plant:
No, no, I just try and minimalize my possessions. A good hotel in the Welsh mountains is better than owning a cottage.

Michael Small:
Did you at some point decide to sort of divest yourself of possessions? Because it seemed like at one point you had a lot of houses.

Robert Plant:
No, no, no. I've always been very happy to just have one place that I call home. You know, I can't really jump on a plane and fly off to another place where some guy bows and scrapes as you walk in the door.

Michael Small:
Do you see your kids at all or not much anymore?

Robert Plant:
Yeah, I see them as often as I can. I mean, I've never been on a tour this long and I never ever will do again. I spoke to my boy this morning. He just got his first exam result. He got an A in French.

Michael Small:
How old is he now?

Robert Plant:
Sixteen.

Michael Small:
What's his name?

Robert Plant:
His name is Logan.

Michael Small:
Do you see him when you're home?

Robert Plant:
I see him all the time because we speak about every 48 hours. Yeah, we're very, very close.

Michael Small:
Is he into music at all?

Robert Plant:
No.

Michael Small:
Have you seen any signs?

Robert Plant:
Have I seen any signs? If I see them, I'll smack him out of it. We've got one fool in the family, that's enough. He's quite an attractive boy and he has some kind of preoccupation with models.

Michael Small:
Female models?

Robert Plant:
Yes, not construction kits, unfortunately. When we were filming in Morocco, there were a bunch of internationally renowned beauties staying at the hotel. And because he's the same height as I am, and he's olive skinned, he's quite an attractive guy. These beautiful blondes hit on him, he spent most of his time sunbathing and chatting with these beauties as Jimmy and I salivated from the opposite side of the pool, in meetings about what we're going to do next. And the thing I wanted to do next was kick my kid into the pool and sit where he was.

Michael Small:
Do you see your other children?

Robert Plant:
I see everybody.

Michael Small:
Are they in careers yet?

Robert Plant:
My daughter is quite a renowned kinesiologist and aromatherapist.

Michael Small:
And your other son, his name is?

Robert Plant:
Lee.

Michael Small:
What's he doing now?

Robert Plant:
He's desperately trying to be four as soon as he can.

Michael Small:
Is he the son of your current girlfriend?

Robert Plant:
No, he's the son of previous girlfriend who waits placidly with a kitchen knife for my return.

Michael Small:
Those girls.

Robert Plant:
Ex-girlfriend. Yeah, that's right. I miss her a lot.

Michael Small:
I know I'm going to be asked this, so is there anything you can tell me about your current girlfriend? Is she in the music industry? Have you been going out a long time or a short time?

Robert Plant:
No, she's not in the music industry. She is not even my current girlfriend anymore. Because when I decided to take on this project, it meant that I wanted to take it on without having any real emotional responsibilities. And when people discuss what you're going to do for the rest of your life, what they want to do for rest of their lives, sometimes I can't do what other people want. I mean, I'm always going to be moving. It means that permanent relationships are almost impossible to... I mean, I'm a great person to be around here, right now in San Francisco, but in Portland, tomorrow, you can't drag people through all that. I don't think it's appropriate. And also it gets in the way of what I want to do. It's a very selfish thing. I really want to sing those things that nobody else can sing. So... in between projects, I often think that I've found the ultimate love. But when I start singing, I realize that it's too much of a thing to put people through. And AT &T would have incredible profits.

Michael Small:
You'd have to buy them first.

Robert Plant:
That's right.

Michael Small:
I want to talk a little bit about you and Jimmy. It sounds like you two don't spend a lot of time socializing once when you're not on the stage.

Robert Plant:
Well, I think we do, but I think his situation is such now... He's gone through a lot of trauma and we're very close in a very good, wholesome way. I know I can rely on him, he knows he can rely on me, but he's gone through a lot of crap and he hasn't really, I think he's only now getting focused and centered. So I give him a certain amount of something that helps him and vice versa. And everybody writes their own book about what Page and Plant are all about. I mean, we can be quite abrasive characters, each of us, but we'll kick the shit out of each other with dialogue just to get to the right point to make sparks fly. We get on really good, but I mean, for the time that I'm with him, and I spend a lot of time writing with him, I get enough of Jimmy, and he gets enough of me. And if we need any more, we just call each other up.

Michael Small:
It does also then raise the question of John Paul Jones. I'm confused by the things that I read. It sounds like you just didn't tell him about this whole thing that was going on.

Robert Plant:
Well, I don't think it's anybody's responsibility to go around reminding people who never speak to you that, normally, that this is what I'm going to do now, you know? It's like me ringing up the ex-wife I divorced 14 years ago and saying, I'm taking a 21 year old nubile to a mud wrestling club tonight. Jimmy and I are part of the stereotypical singer guitarist phenomena that rock has been yawning over for years and years. And we were the ones who may or may not have a problem with each other, but we were the ones who also naturally got a result in the shortest space of time, musically, personality wise. And if we were going to do anything, it would have begun with us anyway. When we sat down together in 1968 and played records, it was just the two of us deciding and checking each other's taste out musically and so on. If I hadn't have liked Howlin' Wolf, or he hadn't have liked Joan Baez, or so on and so on, we wouldn't be here now. That's where it began as a kernel of ideas. So to begin all this again, on some form or another, it had to begin with the two of us. And then I decided I personally didn't want it to be Led Zeppelin because it isn't Led Zeppelin. And we can use all the Led Zeppelin trinkets, but at least we can carve out a future. And I think that it's the best thing to have done. And there's no disrespect to John Paul Jones, but I don't hear from him from one year to the next. I can't see certainly why he should be so infuriated that I decided to develop a musical rapport with a guy who at least I've been sparring with for 15 years since the demise of something, you know?

Michael Small:
Do you think in some way Jimmy is different in terms of working with him now? Is there something different musically or is there something different off stage in the way you perceive him?

Robert Plant:
Well, I find him much easier to get on with now. I mean, he's got a good dry sense of humor. But you know, in all the sort of historical stuff that's built around the Led Zeppelin myth. I never ever heard anybody tell me that he's got a sense of humor. He's a good, he's a funny guy. He's very witty and very sharp. And because his health is so much better than it was in the past, then it's only really exaggerated that witty humor and stuff. So it's good. It's a dry and often hysterical and quite japing time, you know? I mean, it's like we're still pinching each other when, you know, it's still good stuff. But it's better than it was because it's much more lucid.

Michael Small:
You just made a reference to like the mythology around the band. When I asked Jimmy if he would correct one myth, just say one preposterous thing that wasn't true, he had nothing to say about it. And if it were me, I'd be like, I'd want to get the record straight.

Robert Plant:
I don't think it matters because there's so much exaggeration on the newsstand, no matter what that once you start plugging holes, you can go on forever. You know, fuck it, who cares? I mean, what's the difference between truth and myth when people only wanna get some kind of exaggerated view of people? Once the fuel is on the fire, there's nothing, there's no putting it straight. Just let it be. The more you give it credence, you give it more credence by denying it or pissing about with it. I mean, and also, if he's anything like me, neither of us, I don't think, read any of the inflammatory stuff that goes to make it.

Michael Small:
Is it accurate to assume, however, that the early Led Zeppelin tours were wild events?

Robert Plant:
I don't know whether they're wilder than any visiting ice hockey team's soirees. When we were real young, it was a very exaggerated and ridiculous period in American pop culture. All people everywhere were having a great time. I don't know where great becomes garish and garish becomes sardonic. And I don't know where the line is to draw between having a great time and it becoming absurd. The thing about all this is, it's how you tell the tale. So the times that I spent with Janis Joplin backstage in certain festivals or all the things that happened that happened that happened that happened were going on everywhere. It was a continuum. It wasn't just Led Zep. It was everywhere. It was the souring of the Beautiful People. We weren't the only ones privy to it. It was just, do what you like, as long as you don't upset anybody or hurt anybody.

Michael Small:
Do you miss the do-what-you-like thing?

Robert Plant:
I'm doing what I like. I'm propagating a tree from the Nevada mountains. That's what I like. I like fiddling with 10 million year old, petrified snails. I mean, I'm just doing what I like in a different time.

Michael Small:
Do you care about reviews in newspapers? Do you look at them? Did you look at the Chronicle?

Robert Plant:
No, has there been one?

Michael Small:
Today.

Robert Plant:
Yeah?

Michael Small:
Yeah. I was bothered by it. See, you probably won't even care.

Robert Plant:
Well, I haven't seen it. But when we were kids playing here, we were being reviewed by guys from a generation above us, older, who hated us and loathed our sort of coquettish sort of confidence. Then in the late 70s, we were being reviewed by journalists who in order to maintain their hip and cool, had to salute coming up a new wave of music. So we were fucked, and we were passé, and we were tired, and we were no longer whatever it is. And then we have another age of journalists who are younger than us who said that because we don't use the term Led Zeppelin and because we mix cultures and musical styles, that we're one of the only combinations of musicians from the 60s who have any self-respect. The only thing that can be leveled against us is the fact that we're not as young as Faith No More. But we're certainly as vital. So basically the reviews have been built around generally around the fact that it is extravagant and quite ambitious to do what we're doing. Whether it's a good night or a bad night, the reviewer, if he's had a row with his girlfriend, then we're all going to pay for it. You know, depending upon the country that you're playing in, I mean, in certain countries, the fact that you're old immediately means that you can't play anymore.

Michael Small:
Right.

Robert Plant:
Even though Jerry Lee Lewis is very unreliable, when he plays Hank Williams, you win again. I can cry. So I don't care about all these kind of quirky journalistic personality things. Also, I don't know whether or not the audience that I want to come to the show is particularly going to be reading a journalist's account.

Michael Small:
Is there something that you feel that you have figured out that you didn't have figured out in the Led Zeppelin days?

Robert Plant:
I'm sure there are millions of things that I've figured out. I guess the most important thing is never do anything a minute longer than you need to if it's a compromise on your time because time is so precious.

Michael Small:
I agree.

Robert Plant:
And so as soon as you compromise your time then negativity kicks in. I think, Yeah. Just carry pictures of pretty women and small trees from high places. Yes, and very old snails.

Michael Small:
Would you say that you're happy on this tour? 

Robert Plant:
Yeah, I'm very happy. I mean I think for many years I really was very skeptical and I stayed very very far away from the idea or teaming back up with Jimmy because I thought that the whole game would get out of my hands and it would become a crass, money-making, nostalgia trip for the sake of it being just a sort commercial venture. And because we have got so many songs written which are on tape back in England to work on, because there is some definite feeling of
continuity, and because Jimmy and I are both in different places now in our heads. We're not exactly Jack Lemmon and Walter Mathau. But I mean, at least we've got a time that we enjoy each other's company and we both know what day it is. Which is more than... More than a lot.
Michael Small:
Yeah.

[Recorded interview ends]

Michael Small:
So that's my talk with Robert Plant.

George Meyer:
I liked how patient he was with your questions, you know, not that the questions were bad. I thought they were really good. They were the ones I would have asked, you know, what do you eat? What time do you go to bed? And, you know, what time do you show up? you know, all those little nuts and bolts questions and trying to get some some kind of salacious stuff, you know, through the back door.

Michael Small:
That's going to be the theme, the back door.

George Meyer:
Yeah, the back door. I thought he was, he found the questions refreshing because they were really short and really fanlike.

Michael Small:
When they got together afterwards, I just imagined the two of them going like, you know, "Bloody hell. He asked me every time I took a crap." Well, anyway, it is what it is. I did think Robert Plant was extremely articulate and charming and funny and sort of humble in some ways.

George Meyer:
Well, everything is humble after "I am a golden god" at the Continental Riot House on the Sunset Strip.

Michael Small:
I felt like he reminded me sort of of a really cool college professor.

George Meyer:
He would probably love that, by the way.

Michael Small:
I had a more difficult time with Jimmy Page. It was trickier. He spoke really softly. It was hard to hear what he was saying. But let's listen to that and then we can talk about that afterwards. Now this one I cut down to more like 14 minutes. I hope you enjoy it.

[Recorded interview begins]

Michael Small:I know that people would be very curious about what's different now.  What would you say is different about Robert?

Jimmy Page:
I think he's probably enjoying himself more.

Michael Small:
Why do you think?

Jimmy Page:
Because... listen to what we've got. Introduced people to these new musical colors and it's a success on our terms.

Michael Small:
Yeah. But you were a success before.

Jimmy Page:
Yeah.  But this isn't jukebox hits. We're not going around doing jukebox hits. We're doing something which is new. Totally new to people and they're ecstatic.  They even say it's, you know, like this is... I've never ever heard anything like it, I doubt if I will again. Almost like a religious experience. It's a journey.

Michael Small:
You used to feel little bit trapped by having to play the songs exactly the way people knew them on the radio, that kind of thing, in the old days?

Jimmy Page:
No, because we never did that either. We didn't. Other people do. We didn't. We changed things around all the time, like we do now.

Michael Small:
You feel like you're doing something fresher now? Is that it?

Jimmy Page:
Yeah, well I still got as much enthusiasm as I had then.

Michael Small:
Can we just focus in on one song just for a minute? Is there anything that can be said in a few words about how you're doing it differently now than you would have done it, you know, 15 years ago?

Jimmy Page:
Let's say The Song Remains the Same. When we used to play that in the past, I did the whole... What I could manage on it, that means the rhythm parts and the verses, and then the solos on the 12 string, on the double neck, that's live. On the original record, I added parts to the 12 string, the underlying 12 string, with the 6 string guitar. Which of course I couldn't do both of those on the stage at the same time, one had to go. Now we've got an extra guitar, so I don't have to sort of lose out on doing one part or the other. I can do the 12  string part, Porl can do the first solos, and then I can do all the solos at the end. So that makes it even more exciting for them to listen to.

Michael Small:
So you like having those other guitarists on stage?

Jimmy Page:
Well, I played them in the first place. He's only playing one I played in the first place. But, on that one anyway.

Michael Small:
But like having them on stage so you can have the whole sound.

Jimmy Page:
Yes, that's right. So we can improve it immediately on what it was before. That's what I used to do all the time. Learned from that as much as the songwriting or the playing. It's actually orchestrating and layering guitars. It's good for me to actually hear it live with the guitar that I can't play at the same time.

Michael Small:
I know it may be really obvious, but I couldn't understand what you were doing when you were waving your hands and the music was changing as if you were playing the guitar. Is there something?

Jimmy Page:
It's a theremin. I've had that all the way through. I used it on Whole Lotta Love, actually. But mine looks like a transistor radio with an aerial on the side. The closer your hand gets to the aerial, the higher the pitch.

Michael Small:
You really are playing.

Jimmy Page:
I'm playing, yeah. There's a whole lot of things going on. Plus I'm doing guitar chords as well, which are descending. The chords are changing because by nature of the guitar that I'm using, it has a facility to be able to do that. It's got a computer in it, in other words.

Michael Small:
Oh, okay. What kind of guitar is it?

Jimmy Page:
It's called a trans-performance. Trans-performance. And it can hold 310 different tunings.

Michael Small:
I used to have a friend at People Magazine who was always there and someone I could like yell across the hall to and yell through the walls and I'm wondering do you have any sort of that feeling when you're on stage?

Jimmy Page:
What, with Robert?

Michael Small:
Yeah.

Jimmy Page:
Like... yeah, I'm listening all the time.

Michael Small:
You are?

Jimmy Page:
Listening all the time and so is everyone else. If he starts moving somewhere I'll try, you know, I'll follow him. But that's from years of having done that because that's part of us. He'll do the same with me, you know.

Michael Small:
So you're very aware of him.

Jimmy Page:
Oh absolutely, yeah.

Michael Small:
I want to talk a little bit about the routine of this particular tour. In terms of how you're living now, are you watching your diet in a different way? Like, are you watching your alcohol consumption? Are you watching anything? Are you going to sleep earlier? Or can you talk a little bit..

Jimmy Page:
No, I'm actually sleeping.

Michael Small:
You are sleeping?

Jimmy Page:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
And you didn't...

Jimmy Page:
Whereas in the past, I mean, when we recorded Song Remains the Same. Admittedly, it was the end of the tour, and it was a long tour. My sleep was diminishing each night. I would stay up five days in a row. I couldn't sleep. That's how pumped I was in those days. Now I sleep. I can't, I mean, now I can't stay up, miss a night's sleep at all.

Michael Small:
About what time would you go to sleep normally?

Jimmy Page:
Two in the morning? Two. Two. Three in the morning. Wake up at about eight.

Michael Small:
At about eight? And that's enough sleep for you?

Jimmy Page:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, but now the only other thing, yeah, there was another thing as well. Now I have to take a nap for 15 minutes. But I can't just put my head down and get to sleep. I have to wait for this whole blanket of fatigue.

Michael Small:
You don't do anything like meditation?

Jimmy Page:
No, no, no, no, no. But I do have some patterns that I employ, not for sleep, before concerts, little ritual, well, 15 minutes before going on just to focus.

Michael Small:
Just quietly in your...

Jimmy Page:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So in other words, if it's a zoo backstage, and I don't get that, it takes me quite a while to settle in on stage.

Michael Small:
What about what you're eating? I know this is kind of things people care about. Like what would you have for... When do you eat? Do you eat two meals, three meals?

Jimmy Page:
Well, I'm changing around. I was on a diet. Before I did this project, went on a gluten-free diet and knocked out dairy products and sugars and citrus fruit. This is going to make people sick. But I lost like 18 pounds in four weeks. So... And I haven't really put it on either, which is good. That's a good... Now, that was a diet. I was bit fed up with how I was looking. And I'm changing around. I mean, recently I was having a juice diet. Vegetable juices. The only sweet thing you have in it is carrots and some wheatgrass and ginseng. I was having that every morning and then eating a late lunch. But a large lunch and that's it. That's all I've been eating. Because I can't eat before I go on. That's another thing. I've just felt too sluggish.

Michael Small:
How about after?

Jimmy Page:
Well, no, it's not a good time to eat, see.

Michael Small:
Oh, wow. So you eat a big lunch and that's...

Jimmy Page:
Yeah, really. I might have just a little snack or something.

Michael Small:
I don't want you to worry. I'm not going to make you go over the whole past or whatever, but I think we need to, because of the curiosity of readers, to address all these unbelievable myths about Led Zeppelin. When you look back, is there a particular myth that you would be willing to just say, no, this was always said and not true?

Jimmy Page:
No. A lot of it, yes, the things that are written are totally distorting. Totally distorting. For me, I would want to...

Jimmy Page:
No, I can't be bothered. I'm not ready to do that yet. I'm too busy having a good time playing, putting energies into writing.

Michael Small:
Is there a lot of partying going on now? Do you still drink?

Jimmy Page:
Yeah, I'll have a drink.

Michael Small:
Well, a drink?

Jimmy Page:
Well, I might want one now. Why is everyone so concerned about what consumption I have had past, present or future? I'm not bothered with it. I'm not interested in it. I'm just going to live my life the way that I think I should live it.

Michael Small:
I guess people get curious because, well for one thing you can't...

Jimmy Page:
I don't care. Whatever, it doesn't matter. That's basically my philosophy. It just doesn't matter.

Michael Small:
I want to know how you held onto your hair.

Jimmy Page:
Oh, it's going. It's actually literally going.

Michael Small:
No, isn't.

Jimmy Page:
It is, honestly.

Michael Small:
Oh, please, I should have such a problem.

Jimmy Page:
No, no, but it really is. It's really killing me.

Michael Small:
You're damn lucky. Do you do something special to like care for it? Do you have a kind of special way?

Jimmy Page:
No, I offer daily prayers.

[Pause in recorded interview]

Michael Small:
A quick interruption. It's a little difficult to hear what Jimmy said next, so I'll give you a preview. He told me that he collects arts and crafts furniture and Gothic revival furniture and William Morris tapestries. He also mentioned that his London home is in the Gothic revival style and full of murals and mosaics. He said, "It's a work of art. I'm only a caretaker for it. That's why it's important to me."

[Recorded interview resumes]

Jimmy Page:
I collected arts and crafts furniture, gothic revival furniture.

Michael Small:
William Morris 

Jimmy Page:
Yeah. That's exactly what I've got.  William Morris tapestries.  But at the time when I got them, it was because I really loved the work. The amount of money that I paid for them in those days is minimal.

Michael Small:
Is your home in London? Or somewhere else?

Jimmy Page:
I better not tell you in case the burglars come, thinking about that wonderful art collection.  I live in London.

Michael Small:
Did you get rid of some of the houses you had along the way?

Jimmy Page:
Yes, because I could only live in one house at a time. The realization that I came to. But that was only a subtle change. That wasn't a dramatic change.

Michael Small:
Was it long ago you sold the houses or just recently?

Jimmy Page:
Yeah, within the last two years, really.

Michael Small:
Is there something you can tell me about your home?

Jimmy Page:
It's a Gothic revival house built by an architect. The inside is just full of morals and mosaics. It's a work of art.  That's what it is.  I'm only a caretaker for it. And that's why it's important to me.

Michael Small:
This is now getting into People Magazine territory here.  So please be patient with me. But do you have any pets or anybody to keep you company when you're there?  Or do you have someone you live with? Do your children live with you?

Jimmy Page:
No I've just gone through a divorce.

[Recorded interview pauses.]

Michael Small:
Here's another part that may be hard to hear. Jimmy told me that his mother saw his guitar playing as a hobby and she was happy that he enjoyed it. Then he told me he was reading the book Open Veins of Latin America, which is about Western countries plundering the natural resources of Latin America. And he said that one of his favorite authors is Tom Robbins.

[Recorded interview resumes]

Michael Small:
Do you see your parents?

Jimmy Page:
Well, I see my mother. My father's dead, unfortunately.

Michael Small:
Did she listen to your music at all?

Jimmy Page:
She listens. At least she knew what was going on when I first started.
"He was quite happy doing his hobby, you know." And then suddenly it took on another dimension.

Michael Small:
What about reading? Have you been reading anything you've been into lately?

Jimmy Page:
I've been reading Open Veins of Latin America. It's about the raping pillage of the minerals from Latin America. That's one book I've reading. Tom Robbins. I've been reading Tom Robbins.

Michael Small:
Which one?

Jimmy Page:
Another Roadside Attraction. I really like his writing.

Michael Small:
Yeah, he's really fun. I know that you used to be into spirituality lot. Are you still interested in...

Jimmy Page:
I'll always be interested in the part of the spirit. Always. I mean, that's one of the most important things.

Michael Small:
What about, in particular, that there's been so much written about you being interested, actually, reviving Alistair Crowley?

Jimmy Page:
I don't really buy anything. Okay, so somebody spotted me buying a book in a bookshop. I just always hope someone would call me a black magician so I could sue them for millions.

Michael Small:
I'd say it, but there's a tape recorder on. I hate to tell you, you wouldn't get millions.

Jimmy Page:
No, no, you wouldn't get millions, but that's what you sue for over here. That's the American way. Let me play the game.

Michael Small:
More of my trivial questions. When you're touring like this, I notice you're wearing this kind of cool silk shirt on stage or it looked like silk or something. Do you have a whole wardrobe that's going with you or just...?

Jimmy Page:
That was the idea. That was the idea. I had all these suits made up, of which the black one is the best one. But I only get to wear the jacket up to the stage. I said, if I'm feeling good about it, because it's so hot. Because we just hit all those numbers without stopping. And I tend to perspire a lot on stage. And so I don't want to accelerate that. So in actual fact, well, I had all this sort of, wardrobe, those suits. In fact, the shirts didn't get made up properly. So that's of course what I need for the work. Somebody took the mickey out of one of my suits. said, Oh, that looks a bit like Prince. I said, what? That was the first date. You see, this was Pensacola. I'm really nervous about how's it gonna go. So I didn't wear those. Basically, I tell you what, I got two shirts and one pair of trousers. That's it.

Michael Small:
Was there a designer that was chosen to make the suits?

Jimmy Page:
I designed the suits.

Michael Small:
You did? And you didn't like your own suit?

Jimmy Page:
Yes, I did. I did. I did. I thought they were good. It's only the one suit that's a bit suspect. Because it's in paisley. It's purple.

Michael Small:
The idea of the purple paisley. Like you saw this little purple paisley swatch.

Jimmy Page:
I remember I saw a big bit of it. I went to see it. No, I wanted to see it. That wasn't enough. I had to go and see it later on to see what it would look like. I thought it would be good under the lights. But anyway, so what do you care? It doesn't matter.

Michael Small:
Are there ways in which you're extravagant?

Jimmy Page:
Yeah, I guess so. By having a wardrobe of suits and then you're wearing one. So in fact, you know, I'm making an effort. But really it still comes down to the minimalist concept. Whether I like it or not.

Michael Small:
Do you feel like you or Robert, either one of you, is sometimes very frugal?

Jimmy Page:
I am to a point.

Michael Small:
Well, it's weird. There's extravagance and frugality at the same time.

Jimmy Page:
Yeah. And stoicism. Yeah.

Michael Small:
Has the Hall of Fame thing happened yet?

Jimmy Page:
Yeah. Yeah. We did that.

Michael Small:
Did you have any feeling about that? Was it something exciting to you, or were you kind of like, oh, another event?

Jimmy Page:
Well, I've done it. I've been inducted into it before with the Yardbirds.

Michael Small:
Okay.

Jimmy Page:
And I was dreading it, to be honest with you, because on that one, people were just going over the top with their speeches and their... oh, it was murder. But this time, it was... They changed the whole... I guess because they televising it, they'd actually put musical slots into it as it went along. I mean, it was a great surprise. We just had a jam at the end. Neil Young got up and played with us. He said, I like to play with you guys. I said, that sounds great. What should we do? He started reading off. While everyone's sitting here at the tables, know, in fitness shoes, watching all this. So we're hurriedly trying to get this, are we going to play? So we're saying to Neil, we'll play this, we'll play that. None of it is... And he said, no. He said, I want to play one of yours. So I thought, well, I'm not going to want to do Black Dog here, because he may not know that. So we did Levee Breaks, and it was great fun.

Michael Small:
When you look back, is there anything that you feel you figured out now that you hadn't figured out then?

Jimmy Page:
Well, it's all of the whole thing is a learning process. I haven't made any really serious dramatic changes. No, I haven't. Subtle changes as life's gone on. I've never made a sort of dramatic change. Rock and roll lifestyle is such, especially such an unhealthy one. Yeah. You see most rock and roll people, they're a lot healthier than anybody else in the street. So try to explain that to me. I don't want you to.

[End of recorded interview]

Michael Small:
So that's what Jimmy told me. Any reaction?

George Meyer:
I'm always kind of surprised at how different he is from the bombastic stage performer. You know, he's he seems kind of shy and diffident almost. As you say, very soft spoken. You wonder where that other part lives inside him. I was just watching some of the in 1973 Madison Square Garden show, you know, which I consider to be Zeppelin at their peak, from the movie, The Song Remains the Same. It's just so much fun to watch Jimmy strutting around and Robert doing the bookends to it. It's... it's fantastic. And, and, and Jimmy is constantly gesticulating and just throwing off these little weird gestures. And at one point he's, he's playing, I think it's on Misty Mountain Hop. And then he just goes like that with his finger, little things like that, that are just cool. And those crazy wizard clothes with the little moons and stars on them.

Michael Small:
I really now understand why he was so amazing. His ability to play those instruments, the dexterity and the skill is just incredible. But now comes the moment of somewhat potential unhappiness for me because now we have to talk about what am I going to do with these things. Here's my story that I wrote that never ran and I just feel like I've got to keep that.

George Meyer:
Yeah. Now why didn't they run the story?

Michael Small:
You've guessed almost everything else right. Can you guess what could have gone wrong with this story?

George Meyer:
It was poorly written.

Michael Small:
That was probably true.

George Meyer:
That was a joke.

Michael Small:
We got them out for photos and they stood there more like dinosaurs than they wanted to be.

George Meyer:
Oh dear.

Michael Small:
They would not smile. And you know, it's People magazine. You want to be like jumping in the air or doing something. And they stood there like it was a funeral. I think it was just outside the hotel. They wouldn't go anywhere. People kept saying, Oh, they're getting along so well. They're getting along so well. So I feel that that meant like they didn't really want to have fun with each other in these photos.

George Meyer:
No. Well, it's not The Monkees, you know. They're not going to be riding around in a dune buggy together.

Michael Small:
I was really disappointed because I hated taking their time. You know, I felt like a traitor to them. But yeah, that's why it never ran.

George Meyer:
You could have been taken to the Gallows Pole for that.

Michael Small:
Exactly. As long as I didn't have to be a backdoor man, it's fine. So here you see these are the three cassette tapes. I just find it really hard to put these in the trash can.

George Meyer:
I would too, My goodness.

Michael Small:
Good.

George Meyer:
I was thinking there should be some sort of central repository of just random stuff like this. That's like a super archive dot org where you can just send them the files and some sort of AI figures out how to organize it all because it shouldn't just bite the dust, you know?

Michael Small:
It's true if I put them back up in the attic when I go, somebody's just going to throw it all out.

George Meyer:
Go where? Oh, I see what.

Michael Small:
I'm glad you haven't been thinking about it as much as I have, where I'm going. Do I have your blessing to put these back up in the attic?

George Meyer:
Sure. Go for it. The mice won't eat them. They hate plastic.

Michael Small:
This is another thing that I hesitate to throw away.

George Meyer:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
This is the set list.

George Meyer:
That's good. they closed with In the Evening, but before the encore, one of my very favorites.

Michael Small:
This will be saved. It doesn't take up much space.

George Meyer:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
I do have some things here I'm going to throw out. I'm going to show you. You know, as a reporter, you go and you get all these articles, Rolling Stone articles and stuff. I don't need to save that. I also have a press release about the tour. So I'm going to let that go. That's my stuff. And I did get rid of something. So I think you really did help me make some progress.

George Meyer:
Okay.

Michael Small:
To anyone who enjoyed today's episode, I hope you will sign up for our email list. So you'll always know about the latest episodes and you won't have to go on social media to know about it. You can do that at throwitoutpodcast.com. That is throwitoutpodcast.com. I guess that's it, George. Thank you so much.

George Meyer:
It was a whole lotta fun.

Michael Small:
You had that one ready. And getting back to you more of what you gave, I want to say that if the mountains crumble to the sea, there will still be you and me.

George Meyer:
Thank you, Michael. Namaste, my buddy.

Michael Small:
Thank you. Bye.

George Meyer:
Bye-bye.

[Theme song begins]

I Couldn't Throw It Out theme song
Performed by Don Rauf, Boots Kamp and Jen Ayers
Written by Don Rauf and Michael Small
Produced and arranged by Boots Kamp

Look up that stairway
To my big attic
Am I a hoarder
Or am I a fanatic?

Decades of stories
Memories stacked
There is a redolence
Of some irrelevant facts

Well, I couldn't throw it out
I had to scream and shout
It all seems so unjust
But still I know I must
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out

Well I couldn't throw it out
Oh, I couldn't throw it out

I'll sort through my possessions
In these painful sessions
I guess this is what it's about
The poems, cards and papers
The moldy musty vapors
I just gotta sort it out

Well I couldn't throw it out
Well I couldn't throw it out
Oh, I couldn't throw it out
I couldn't throw it out

[Theme song ends]

END TRANSCRIPT