Invasion of the Swedish Death Cleaners

I Couldn't Throw It Out
Season 2, Episode 21 - The Swedes Explain Swedish Death Cleaning 

Michael Small:
Hello and welcome to a special episode of I Couldn't Throw It Out, where Sally and I will test out a process called Swedish Death Cleaning. In case you don't know what that is, it involves getting rid of things you've saved forever. So guess what? It is not one of my strong points. That's why we are so lucky to consult some of the world's leading experts, the three hosts of the Peacock TV series, The Gentle Art of Swedish Death. And yes, it's true. These people actually made us laugh at the thought of death. Just listen to this.

[recorded interview begins]

Johan Svenson:
You're gonna die. You're gonna die. One day you will die. So why hang on to this? Why cling on to it?

[recorded interview ends]

Michael Small:
But here's a spoiler. One of us also shed a few tears. If you want to find out why and learn if a little Swedish death cleaning might be right for you, keep listening.

[theme song excerpt starts]

I couldn't throw it out
I had to scream and shout  
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out
Before I turn to dust 
I've got to throw it out

[them song excerpt ends]

Michael Small:
Hello, Sally Libby:.

Sally Libby:
Hello, Michael Small.

Michael Small:
We have been watching some excellent TV this week, haven't we?

Sally Libby:
Excellent.

Michael Small:
And do you want to tell the world what we've been watching?

Sally Libby:
The gentle art of Swedish death cleaning.

Michael Small:
For anyone who missed it, this is a show that came out last April on the Peacock Channel. There were eight episodes, and it is based on a book by a Swedish artist named Margareta Magnussen. And it became a huge surprise bestseller all around the world. Then the TV show was inspired by the book. And would you say this TV show is relevant to our podcast?

Sally Libby:
It's everything.

Michael Small:
It's the sweet spot for us.

Sally Libby:
The Swede spot.

Michael Small:
Oh. Yeah. Yes, you had to say that. OK.

Sally Libby:
Had to.

Michael Small:
They have this show where they talk and think about everything you and I talk about on this podcast. What did you think of the show, Sally?

Sally Libby:
I really, really love the show. Eight episodes was not enough. I just, I hope it goes on and on.

Michael Small:
And I couldn't agree more. My reason is so much of reality TV is about rotten people behaving badly. And this show is just the opposite. It is about three funny, clever, thoughtful people who came all the way from Sweden to make life better for people in Kansas City. And that's kind of a miracle. But the biggest miracle is... as you know, you are staring at them right now on your computer screen. I wrote to them in Sweden, and all three of them agreed to join us to share their insight about what we're doing on this podcast. I'm nervous because I've seen them on TV, but I wanna say, welcome Swedish guests.

Katarina Blom:
Tack.

Ella Engstrom:
Thank you.

Johan Svenson:
Thank you so much.

Katarina Blom:
Thank you.

Michael Small:
Now, before you tell the world about the beauty of Swedish Death Cleaning and what it is, we just wanna hear your names and what your role was on the TV show. Let's start with Ella.

Ella Engstrom:
Yeah, I'm Ella and I'm the organizer in the show and I'm actually also working as that here home in Sweden.

Michael Small:
Cool. Johan?

Johan Svenson:
I'm the interior designer and that's what I do in Sweden too. I'm also a set designer so I work a lot with like commercials and all kinds of experience spaces. So this was a really fun job to do.

Michael Small:
Well, we had fun watching it. And last but not least, Kat.

Katarina Blom:
Yeah, so I'm a psychologist and I have a private practice in Sweden as well as a lot of keynote speaking events. I also write books on happiness and relationships.

Michael Small:
I know we should get to this later, but I do have to interject that the kindness that Kat shows to everybody on this show and the way she helps them get through their problems is mind blowing. We just really admire what you've done. So now we get to the question. I have been surprised -- considering that book sold millions and millions of copies -- that almost everyone I speak to has no idea what Swedish Death Cleaning is. So Ella, can you talk about the basics of what is Swedish Death Cleaning?

Ella Engstrom:
Mm-hmm. Swedish death cleaning is to take a good look at your things and see what serves you here and now and also make sure that you don't burden Your loved ones with things if you die. You don't know when it's gonna happen. You don't want to leave a lot of things and crap behind you.

Michael Small:
How Swedish is this? Is this a new tradition or did your grandparents do it? Do your friends and family do it?

Ella Engstrom:
It's absolutely a Swedish thing. It's something that has been going on for generations actually. And we also have this word, you have probably heard of it, that we say in the show, the word lagom. That means not too little and not too much. And that actually applies in everything we do in kind of the way that we are like lagom in our things and how we are with people and everything. So lagom, you can apply that on very many things actually. And if you're a Swede, you are doing it every time.

Michael Small:
Yeah. But if you're me, you're not, as you know. Is Swedish death. cleaning the same thing as decluttering or is it beyond that?

Ella Engstrom:
Yeah, I mean it's also about not leaving things behind for your loved ones and find out what is important. So in that kind of way, it's a different approach than other decluttering methods, I would say. It's actually an ongoing process, you can say, because it's something you do during your lifetime and you change in different phases in life. So I think it's a more easy process to do decluttering.

Johan Svenson:
Decluttering, that's the verb, that's the practice, you know, in a way. And Death Cleaning is a philosophy on why you do it. Yeah. That's the difference in a way. So they shouldn't be compared because decluttering, you can do that, you know, because you're tired of purple sweaters in your wardrobe and you take them out and get rid of them. But this is... So the decluttering is the verb of the doings, but the Death Cleaning is the philosophy.

Michael Small:
Thank you. People in America are very familiar with Marie Kondo. Is there a complete overlap or is there a distinguishing factor from what Marie Kondo does?

Sally Libby:
Marie Kondo doesn't believe in death. Take it out of the equation.

Katarina Blom:
We're taking that as a joke.

Johan Svenson:
But it's kind of, we actually implement like a knowledge and a process. I mean, it could be a bit lazy sometimes that you have like a consultant coming and doing the work for you. You paid for the service and Marie leaves your house. And then you continue to buy stuff. And this more like depth to the philosophy that we bring in that also aims for evoking a personal responsibility within you and how you live your life.

Michael Small:
I'm so irresponsible.

Johan Svenson:
You are. You need to shape up. Terribly.

Michael Small:
Johan, can you go too far? Like, can it get OCD where you're like always thinking about getting rid of things. Can you get rid of too much?

Johan Svenson:
Well, I think it's Katerina to answer about the OCD because isn't that like a diagnosis of some sort? Yes. The thing is that a lot of people are lazy and they don't care and they pile up stuff over time. I think a lot of more people then would need to have OCD, to make it a more livable world probably.

Katarina Blom:
This is Johan's prescription. Doctor's orders.

Johan Svenson:
More disorders for the people. Yeah.

Ella Engstrom:
Yeah, but things also easily piles up and it accumulates over time. So if you get rid of stuff, it ends up coming new things in a magical way into your house and no one knows what happened? Now it's full again. So. It's something like we said, it's a process that you need to do over and over again.

Johan Svenson:
I think with Marie Kondo, it's like, that's the way when you have like a personal trainer, you see two times a week. What we do is that we exercise in group and everybody needs to be there and bring in something to the game, you know. Other shows has a lot to do with consumption. It's about making the house pretty and neat but Death Cleaning is not about making the house neat. It has nothing to do with orderliness, you know, it's about actually finding purpose of stuff. If you love a collection of something weird, you can keep it.

Sally Libby:
Like Tiki cups?

Katarina Blom:
For example, or old interviews from the 80s. I don't know. I'm just... Oh, yeah. Who would even think of that? Yeah, I don't know.

Johan Svenson:
Exactly.

Michael Small:
Do you have a general approach to design when you are death cleaning? Is it is it any different from just design or something very specific about this?

Johan Svenson:
Yeah. I mean, in this show, this is a collaboration between all three of us. So the interior design reflects the purpose of the agreement about the new space, how, when you rearrange everything, when you sorted out stuff, you kept what's important. You've decided a vision forward, how you're going to live your life here. Now you let go of nostalgia. You have a new perspective. That's what the design should reflect. It's not about the aesthetics. Sometimes it's also about refurbishing things or look at a house with new fresh eyes. It's not a makeover show in that sense. It's not supposed to be because then we're back there again where we should buy stuff. We did very small tweaks that made a huge impact and difference. It's more about sustainability around what can be reused and repurposed.

Michael Small:
Had you ever done Swedish death cleaning design for someone before this show, or was this something you were sort of discovering on the show?

Johan Svenson:
Well, I think for me, it's been a hybrid before because as this is deeply rooted in our culture to be kind of neat and the Lutheran way of not burdening other people. So I think organization like Ella, for instance, she's not just an organizer, she's an interior designer too, is that it goes hand in hand that you actually organize your house. A lot of people love organization and have like the wardrobes and everything. You know, look at IKEA, I mean, all the systems that they sell. So it's, it's kind of deeply rooted.

Ella Engstrom:
Yeah, but also when you when you do the death cleaning, you find things that you haven't seen for a while that are treasures and let them be in a new context and can be in place and shine, and be displayed in a new way with new things, old things. If you put old and old, it gets new.

Michael Small:
Another word that is on a lot of TV shows, so I think we need to mention it, is hoarding. Can you apply Swedish death cleaning for hoarders, or is that just, they're on another show?

Johan Svenson:
That's another show because that's someone who's ill.

Ella Engstrom:
It's a word also that is very easy that you say, I'm a little hoarder here and there, but it's also remind that if you are a hoarder, you have a sickness. So it's a different thing.

Michael Small:
Ella, is your home neat? Do you practice Swedish Death Cleaning?

Ella Engstrom:
I think many people think if you are doing death cleaning, you need to be a minimalist. But that's not the case at all. I have a lot of things, but I do Death Clean here in my home and the things I have, I love. The difference is that everything has a place where they live. It has this home space. So I don't have those piles, you know, that you are shuffling around the home because it's so full that you can't give it a home space. So that's the difference here, I can say. So quite.

Michael Small:
One more thing, Ella, can you talk about your system with the table and the red dots?

Ella Engstrom:
Yeah, a good way when you are going through your things is to set up this sorting station that we do in the show as well. That you make sure that you have a clean place where you can be and sort through your things. And then you can divide your things down to categories and go through item by item and do the one-touch rule, I call it, as well. Look at one thing, make a decision about that. Then you have those boxes where you have the red or the green or the yellow dot on them. The green means that it stays at your place. Yellow is donation or giveaway to loved ones. And the red one is sell or trash.

Michael Small:
The dot that I've never used.

Ella Engstrom:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
What do you do when it doesn't work? and everything gets a green dot?

Katarina Blom:
I just shove Ella towards the person. You need to talk to this lady. No, but often we have good reasons why we don't want to let go of things, which I think you, Michael, is very familiar with. I'm sure you have excellent reasons in your mind and in your heart for why you don't want to let go of the treasures.

Michael Small:
Yes.

Katarina Blom:
I think it's just... talking to people about the reason why they want to hold on to this. Right now, episode three comes to mind with Lindsay, who inherited a lot of things from her mom, and her mom made her promise never to let go of this. They had kind of a rough upbringing. They didn't have a lot growing up. So she felt almost this guilt that I have to keep this because my mother fought so hard for us to have it. But... these days, she's kind of well off in a good neighborhood. So talking to her and just making her realize that behind those items, her mother wished for her a good life, a stable life, the kind of life she wasn't able to provide for her in the first hand, and she already had that. So she actually already ticked that box and she's free. She can actually choose whatever she wants. And then when she realizes this, she actually starts to do the red dots.

Michael Small:
That was a great one. But the whole thing with death, that Swedes can talk about death more than Americans, is there an explanation for that? Or is there a way to help Americans talk about it?

Johan Svenson:
That was very like new information for me. I had no idea about this taboo in the States about death. I didn't know that was gonna be like an issue or a contrast actually.

Katarina Blom:
Yeah. I was surprised as well because I feel like living in Sweden, I wouldn't say that where everyone is super comfy talking about death and pain. But going to the US, just speaking of the people that we met and the context where we were, it became clear quite quickly that people were even more uncomfortable and it was even more of a... taboo topic over there, which made it feel extra meaningful to tear down some bridges around difficult subjects and just paving a new trail for... This is one way of showing up for someone who is struggling with pain or loss or just the sense of feeling stuck in life.

Johan Svenson:
Well, I think the show becomes fun because it's the unawareness of the cultural clashes between us. and the participants. Because I mean, we flew to the States and we had our expertise, we came into these houses. And I think that's what a lot of people don't think because we're all in the western world. We came from Sweden and we think we share the same values and beliefs. But at the end of the day, there are like nuances of what is accepted and what is not accepted. Because there's a lot of people who think that Swedish people are not as direct. Because I think this kind of cute bluntness that comes up sometimes when I see the show is actually more of a cultural clash actually, that total unawareness of that, "Oh, this was not maybe something we could just talk freely about."

Michael Small:
How is talking about death a positive thing?

Katarina Blom:
I think that life resides so much in death. If we just erase the concept of death, we would also erase the concept of life. So they go inherently hand in hand. And when we live in a society where we continually shy away from the fact that everything is always changing and every change entails some kind of micro death of things, of people, of ourselves. Everything is like every moment we live and we die by highlighting that death is actually present in our life or loss in some way. It helps us to give life more color. And I think that can be a bit surprising sometimes, to see that we hold a person and we might cry, but then we laugh in just the other moment, because we just feel so connected, because we're all humans, and we all face these kind of struggles in different flavors.

Ella Engstrom:
Also, I think you treasure life even more if you talk about death. to live more in purpose here and now, and actually value every day in life.

Michael Small:
Wow, that's helpful for me to hear you guys talking about that. So thank you. And you know, part of what we want to do on our podcast is to inspire people to go through their own things while they're still alive, the way I'm going through mine. If any of you have anything to say about what we can do to motivate people so they want to go through their things? What we can say to them? Please help us.

Johan Svenson:
Death. It's death. You're going to die. One day you will die. So why hang on to this? Why cling on to it? That will motivate them if they accept that life is not eternal on earth. Then, you know, as I said in one episode, the angels doesn't have any storage space.

Sally Libby:
Right. Have you heard this expression? "You never see a luggage rack on a hearse."

Johan Svenson:
No, I haven't.

Ella Engstrom:
But I've seen so many times that you have so much stuff in your home, so it affects your everyday life. Yeah. And if it does that, then it's time to go through your stuff. That's a good motivation to. See what you have and what serves you here and now.

Johan Svenson:
Or you go to hell.

Michael Small:
Yeah. Then you can bring everything with you.

Johan Svenson:
Yes, exactly. And we burn it.

Michael Small:
One of the things that's happened to me and I'm sure others is I look at these things, these memories, they were gone from my brain. They were not in my brain. And then they come back and they're rich memories, right? But then you give away all the stuff and you've given away all those memories. How do you keep the memories?

Johan Svenson:
Depends on your brain capacity, I think. How much can you store? How big is your storage?

Ella Engstrom:
When it's full, it's full.

Michael Small:
So I think you're saying keep the best memories and let the others go.

Katarina Blom:
But I think we don't need to remember everything in our life. I'm trying to cite a quote, a Swedish saying, which I'm citing the wrong way. It's kind of like: "When you're going for everything, you also lose everything." What we're trying to help people achieve in this Death Cleaning way is that maybe not all memories needs to be remembered at all times. Maybe there are some things that really stick out. What's a way to give those more space and cherish them in a better way? And also to give more space for your present life. Let's say we've had a wonderful past, but what's happening now? And what about your future? So I think it's about balancing those three time zones.

Michael Small:
But I found, for instance, that I was really busy my whole life, as Sally will attest. I was always busy. And I didn't always notice what was happening. So for instance, I forgot that I interviewed Martha Graham, one of the greatest artists in American history. Dancer. I rediscovered that. She was recording a memoir when I interviewed her. So I just read the memoir. And it was... amazing, highly recommend Blood Memory by Martha Graham. One of the best memoirs I ever read. If I hadn't found that tape, I didn't even remember I interviewed her, let alone getting the chance to read that book. Isn't that a good reason to save things? Because you then rediscover and you can explore them more deeply later on?

Johan Svenson:
Well, it depends because I think life is about discoveries. We talk about that, that you can also like go back to nostalgia. Like a hoarder, you're stuck in what's behind you. And it can be very soothing to find something as you say, "Oh I remember those times." But I don't think life is really meant to be like that, that you should just, like, cling on to everything that happens. You should also be able to open a new door and step in there and make a new experience. Because that experience with that music or that party you went to when you see those images, it built you. It's already with you.

Ella Engstrom:
No of course we don't need to be like too black or white about things. It's lovely to have roots and feel anchored back. And Swedish Death Cleaning is a bit special in the way that we really treasure the family legacy. If you have things handed down for you, let's find those and really put them in your kitchen to be used in your everyday life. So it's wonderful that you can share this group with your friends and have wonderful days here and now. But there's again the balance, like what's a lagam way of doing this? And I completely agree with what Johan says because life was not maybe designed to be living backwards. We can understand ourselves backwards but we have to live into the uncertain, into the unknown.

Johan Svenson:
And another very important thing is that this also tells how objects and things outside of us make us passive. Yeah, because you need to ignite life into or build yourself. It's a passive way of living to just let the objects outside you always manifest what should be going on within you.

Sally Libby:
This is a story. I was in fifth grade at summer camp and a counselor was going on a canoe trip and she came up to me and asked me if she could borrow a towel from me. So I said sure and she went on her trip and she overturned and lost the towel. So I started crying about a towel in fifth grade because it was connected to my home and I was a little homesick. So I just thought, you know, we really do get attached to things for various reasons.

Johan Svenson:
Yeah. And there came some growth. You became more of a stronger girl.

Sally Libby:
I sure did.

Johan Svenson:
Because that object connected to your house, you had to let it go and that was your trauma. And that's why it made you grow.

Sally Libby:
That's right. And there's been trauma ever since.

Johan Svenson:
You have a towel fetish now.

Sally Libby:
So I threw in the towel.

Michael Small:
Now one last question then we're going to start looking at my stuff. Looking at what I've got, I could go through it for the next 10 years. Is that okay? Because it's an ongoing process of Swedish Death Cleaning? As long as I don't do it all day every day? Or is it like, whoa, Swedish Death Cleaning: do it for two weeks and you're done.

Ella Engstrom:
No, but I think it's also about being realistic to yourself. Also, if you have that time to go through your things, do that then in 10 years. If you think that's a fun way to spend your time, of course. But many times we think that we should do that later. I should do that later. It's like having magazines, for example. and don't want to throw them away because you're afraid you're going to miss a recipe or something. So it's actually the fear of missing out that's holding us back to get rid of things many times as well.

Michael Small:
Well, I think we're ready to talk about some things. The first thing is I want to show you that I record in the closet for better sound. These are my shirts. My clothing rule is that if I don't wear it for a year, it has to go. So everything you see has been worn multiple times in the past year, except what happens is when we get to the year point, I often have to wear some strange outfits. We went to visit some friends a few weeks ago and I wore my tuxedo. But anyway, I do have a rule, so I'm not hoarding clothing.

Ella Engstrom:
I mean, that's actually a really good question to ask yourself. Just have I used this thing in the last year? That's a really good help when you're going through your things, to ask that question. And also do I love these things?

Michael Small:
Now I'm going to start showing you some things. First of all, the question is, in the attic, there are 24 boxes. They have been organized by different times in my life, high school, college, work, family stuff, et cetera. Suppose I went through those 24 boxes and everything was processed. Is it such a terrible thing to leave behind 24 boxes? Instead of somebody carrying one thing down the stairs, they've got to spend like another half hour taking 24 things down the stairs to throw it all in the dumpster. How bad is it to leave 24 boxes?

Johan Svenson:
To your friends and relatives when you pass, or?

Michael Small:
Yeah, you always talk about keep one box.

Johan Svenson:
Yeah, I mean, it's relative. I mean, that's what we suggest in the series. But I mean, if you've already organized for someone to come and pick them up, then of course it's all good. But I think it's, yeah, I don't know. I mean, when you give me that description, I think it's also like holding on to quite a lot of things that feels a bit like maybe too much, you know, in a way.

Ella Engstrom:
One question I was thinking about, about those 24 boxes is, are there something in those 24 boxes that are really treasures and the gold nuggets in those boxes? It's easily that mix ups and you threw everything in the dumpster. Is there something that is really cool and important for others in that?

Johan Svenson:
And I think that's what you also should distinguish. When does something have a greater value for society or I might have an art collection or something that could go to a museum or has a value that's, that's beyond your old college books and, you know, and work papers.

Sally Libby:
He has one paper from elementary school that he wrote about how to improve Wisconsin.

Michael Small:
Yeah. You want to skip to that one? I happen to have it right here.

Ella Engstrom:
I think maybe things have changed in Wisconsin since that time.

Michael Small:
Okay. I'm holding up. You know, we have something called construction paper. I have all my papers that I wrote because I loved writing papers and they all have colored construction paper. Usually I started with a poem. Like I have one here about wheat. I really do have to read you the poem about wheat.

(Reading)
Do you know that what you eat is sometimes maybe made of wheat?
Did you know that day and night farmers grow wheat with all their might?
Did you know what people do things you never, never knew?
Did you know that every day wheat is used in every way?
(Reading ends)

Katarina Blom:
Oh, wow.

Sally Libby:
Okay. Wow.

Michael Small:
But I mean, the Dairy State, and I did get an A plus on this, by the way. Let's see if I can find. Here is "How I Think Wisconsin Could Be Improved."

(Reading)
I personally think that Wisconsin is a wonderful state with great potential. But here are a few of the changes I would make if I could. First I would start a huge city so it would be known for its great industry and also its agriculture in the city. It would then attract city goers and give lots of people jobs, but I would prevent slums from coming in. (Yes I would.) Second, I would give it more of a reputation not as all country farms but as a state of beautiful towns like the town we live in, Topsfield, Massachusetts. Oh. Yeah. I would let everyone know it's a great vacation land. Third, I would start lots of colleges there with huge, enjoyable campuses. The kids would go there and then come home and rave to their parents. So everyone will know what a great state it is. Still, I would make a law each family living there, except in the city, must have an acre and a half of land. These are the few things I would do to make Wisconsin better. Still, nothing is perfect. So I'm pretty much satisfied with Wisconsin the way it is.
(Reading ends)

Katarina Blom:
So humble.

Michael Small:
I don't really want to throw this out. It's such a good laugh. It's actually humbling to see my arrogance. It's always humbling to see your own arrogance. Do I have to throw this out?

Ella Engstrom:
If it means much for you, I think you can keep it, you know, but do it for the right reason.

Sally Libby:
Or give it to a depressed person.

Michael Small:
Here's an example when you're talking about, okay, I'm holding up an audio tape, audio recording. This cassette is one of four or five I have that are from my interview. I've done many interviews. This one is my treasure of all treasures, Joni Mitchell. Now what's interesting is the Joni Mitchell archive asked me to digitize it. And I've dragged my feet on that because it takes time to digitize it, partly. I did excerpts on an episode of the podcast. But this also has a lot of boring stuff on it. And the control of this interview I did without ever knowing it would be out there. And giving all the control of that away so that people can use or misuse it, take things out of context, I got nervous about that. So what do you think? Should I digitize it and give it to the Joni Mitchell archives or should I just have my podcast where I had excerpts and then this tape gets thrown out?

Katarina Blom:
What does your conscience tell you?

Sally Libby:
His conscience says save everything.

Michael Small:
Yeah. I think my conscience tells me, set it aside until I have time to listen to it and digitize it. And after I've listened to the whole thing, I could then decide if it was safe to give it away.

Katarina Blom:
Okay. I want to follow up on that. Because one reason why you don't want to give it away and keep it for yourself is that you are scared of being quoted out of contest or ridiculed in some way, criticized that you didn't treasure this moment with the great Joni Mitchell in a better way. So just be sure that you're not postponing digitalizing this because you also want to postpone that decision. Yes. So it's just an avoidant behavior that you're pushing things to the future instead of owning that discomfort and like hanging out with it and like listening to your voice and your stupid maybe questions. Feeling the shame and like go through that process like tonight. Don't put it off. And then make a decision.

Michael Small:
Okay. Beautiful answer as always. I love that. Thank you. Hugely helpful. Okay. On to the next thing. This is something that people don't remember if they're young. Young people don't know what this is. Sally, what is it?

Sally Libby:
It's a Rolodex.

Michael Small:
Yup. Bits of Rolodex, the ancient tool we used in the pre-iPhone days to keep track of phone numbers and addresses. You'd write the info on a little index card, then stick it onto a base, and when you went to make a call, you'd flip through it to find the number. But this Rolodex is a little different from many others because it's the one I used when I worked at People Magazine in the 1980s and 90s. Flipping through it now, here's what I find. Woody Allen's phone number. Isaac Asimov's phone number.

Katarina Blom:
What?

Michael Small:
The New York number for the Kennedy family. Calvin Klein's phone number. Tennis player John McEnroe. Paul Newman's agent. Richard Nixon's press contact. Brooke Shields' home number. And definitely Andy Warhol's number because I talked to him quite a bit. And then I love it when I get to the Y at the end, I get to the comedian, Henny Youngman. Now that is just a small sample of who is on this Rolodex. I think it's a historical thing. Okay, lay it on me. What do you think?

Johan Svenson:
I think you should leave it to like a prop storage in LA. I mean, they can use it for some film in the future.

Sally Libby:
Well, that's a good idea.

Johan Svenson:
Yeah. Like, I mean, there's a lot of like this kind of fun artifacts that you need, you know, with the Mad Men, or you just need like some kind of old props. And that seems like a really fun prop for like a TV series or a film. Definitely.

Michael Small:
But what about the idea that I used to call all these people?

Ella Engstrom:
You know, anyway, that you used to do that. Why don't you take a picture of it and give it away.

Michael Small:
Okay. All right. I'm going to take in what you said and here's something that I just love because it's so crazy. These are my expense accounts from when I worked at People Magazine.

Sally Libby:
Oh.

Michael Small:
The reason why I find this interesting... So many reasons, infinite reasons. First of all, back in the days, I wrote off everything. I mean, I got reimbursed for everything. When I first went to People magazine, if I spent $200 for a story, I'd ask for the money and I got reimbursed. I never recorded what the money was for. What's in this folder is a thing saying in 1987 there was a law passed saying if you spent money on something you had to say what it was. It was a law. And so we had to do it. I love that my attitude was like, I got furious and said, "I can't do my job if you want me to tell you what movie I went to." I took out a few highlights for you. The reason why I love this is because my life, I had forgotten, it's so much fun to look at what my life was like. First of all, one of the confessions. Starting off on February 12th, this is a 1987, Monterey Aquarium ticket for correspondent Cindy Ruskin and me, possible story, $14. Cindy Ruskin is now my wife. We were on vacation in Monterey. On my expense account, $14. Okay, confession. Later that month. Lunch with freelance writer at Paradise Cafe, discuss story ideas, $30.70. The freelance writer was Lawrence O'Donnell, who is now, I don't know if you've ever seen the MSNBC channel, he's the 10 o'clock commentator. He is a major television personality. For me, he was just freelance writer. Then there's a taxi to interview Amy Carter at the Saint Club. That was Jimmy Carter's daughter. That was an $8 taxi. Taxi to the Ritz nightclub for an Iggy Pop concert. Then taxi to see Saturday Night Live. Then here's... I don't know if any of you are familiar with the rock band The Kinks. The lead singer was Ray Davies. Dinner with Ray Davies and his wife at Gustav Anders. $250.94. We had quite a dinner. That was 1987.

Sally Libby:
Wow.

Michael Small:
Then things like dinner with Holly Hemlock. Liz Love and Wendy Wild, who were members of the punk polka band Das Furleins at the Tompkins Square restaurant, $109. And I only have just a few more, just to give you an idea. The Odeon was a very chi-chi restaurant, maybe you've been there.

Johan Svenson:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
Taxi to party at the Odeon for artist Robert Longo. And then the Violent Femmes -- don't know if you've heard of them. They've very big rock band in the US. Gordon Gano is the lead singer. Lunch with Gordon Gano at CBGB, the famous nightclub. They had a little lunch thing for a while. And then to round it off, the last thing, which is just for contrast, round-trip taxi to the Prince George welfare hotel for a story on the homeless, $4 each way. So that's a little sampling. Toss it all?

Johan Svenson:
Yeah, I think so, actually.

Ella Engstrom:
Yeah. You have always picked out some of the things there. Maybe you should frame that with your wife thing and then you can throw out the rest.

Johan Svenson:
I think what you actually you pick up a part of what a Death Cleaning process is, because I mean, that's kind of beautiful sometimes to go through something that you've been through. You know, it will go into your memory and become a bit of a stronger memory again for you. because you kept it. I mean, there's not a lot of people who keep things like that you have. And I don't know, it's you, you are you.

Michael Small:
Yeah, well, me was somebody who Billy Idol, maybe you've heard of Billy Idol, wanted to send me a holiday card every year. That is Billy Idol's signature.

Sally Libby:
Really? Every year?

Michael Small:
I only have two here. Okay. One where he's on a motorcycle, giving me a thumbs up, and the other where he's in some kind of... death-defying futuristic machine. Now, holiday cards from Billy Idol. Toss them, keep them?

Katarina Blom:
I'm thinking with all of these things that you've shown us, is there any way that you could incorporate it in your home in a more, like Ella was talking about that receipt with your life, with your wife, like frame it and put it on the wall. Some of these stories, like, could it be somewhere in your home that it's part of the decor or something that you can use in your everyday life. So it actually gives you something in your mundane life or in your everyday life.

Michael Small:
That's interesting. Cindy's an artist, so every inch is covered with the best art in the world, on the walls. I mean, and she is the best artist in America, no question. But up in the attic, I have some leeway and I could have a Salon des Refusés of all my stuff that doesn't fit in the house. So... That's an idea. I mean, one of the things I might put up is this Peter, Paul and Mary record. Have you heard of Peter, Paul and Mary? Do you know who they are?

Johan Svenson:
No.

Michael Small:
They were folk singers. They sang "Puff the Magic Dragon." I'm holding it up. This is an album called "Movie'" and it has a picture of Peter, Paul and Mary. And I have drawn their bones into their arms because I got this for my sixth birthday. It's my first album. My name is written on it. 'Cause I just learned how to write my name. But the bones drawn in, I think, really increases the value of this treasure. I suppose I could frame it and hang it on the wall.

Sally Libby:
I think your home should be a museum, Michael.

Michael Small:
Like the Adams family: "Their house is a museum when people come to see 'em."

Sally Libby:
Yep.

Michael Small:
Okay. I have two last things here. There's a lot from my parents and I'm going to let go of that stuff. On the show, you said you don't lose your parents when you let go of their stuff. That was very helpful. I don't have furniture and that kind of stuff. What I have is boxes full of stuff like this. This I'm holding up is something called Tannery Talk. I don't know if you know the American word "tannery" -- it's where you make leather.

Johan Svenson:
Oh, okay, oh yeah, tannery.

Michael Small:
My father and my grandfather were in the leather business. My father was often very frustrated with his work. It was at many times a difficult career for him. He loved taking photos, he loved history, he loved playing the violin. He loved science. He just didn't love leather. Well, I mean, I guess he loved leather. There's so many things he would have loved more, but he did it to support us. And anyway, this leather magazine ran an eight page thing about my parents' honeymoon. In 1949, Tannery Talk ran his photos, which is crazy. With large photos, they traveled across the US, and it was all about that. The thing following the story of their honeymoon is titled, "Specialty and Shearling Safety Records Improve." So that shows you how out of context his thing was.

Sally Libby:
I guess they were short on leather news.

Michael Small:
Right. It's mostly about "Lake Louise was beautiful, and the Canadian Rockies are amazing" and all that. But he said, "We spent 11 magic days at the Chateau, swimming. putting on the greens, paddling on the lake, hiking, and exploring the beauties of the surroundings." And my parents had these 11 days that were probably among the happiest days of their life. They had this paradise moment. He was 25, she was 22. And he was worse than me. I have like 30 copies of this. 29 are definitely going to go. And a big point is we never read it. Because he always had it around, nope, I'd never read it. Just read it for the first time.

Johan Svenson:
No, but I think a bit of my grandmother. Sometimes when you have kids around, you know, it doesn't have to be your grandchildren. It could just be any kid around 12 years old or something. When she told stories, I can just like realize that you're very ungrateful as a kid because you just want to hear what's relevant for you. You know, if someone has like a cell phone, if you suddenly pick up like an old phone: "But I used to call on this phone when I was a kid, do you know how hard it was?" You know. then you will lose the interest. So I think you have to think about your stuff. Is there a greater story? Because I loved when my grandmother could put something into a bigger context that I felt, "Oh, this can actually relate to me and to life in a way." I think that's the kind of average edit that everyone should do. And it's different if you have something that, you know, like your beautiful poem or something, that's very cute to keep because that's very special, like, memory for you personally. But... if you have old magazines, I think it needs to be, like, relatable to a bigger story. I mean, it's the same thing with a lot of stuff because otherwise it will just pile up. And at the end of the day, someone has to take care of it when you pass because no one understands it, don't know what to do with it. So you have to take that decision and probably make a little skip away from nostalgia and see what is this really relevant.

Ella Engstrom:
Yes. That's a really good advice.

Michael Small:
This was super important to my dad.

Johan Svenson:
Yeah. But not for you.

Michael Small:
Right. We don't lose him if we lose this.

Katarina Blom:
No, but I wanted to add, I think also what Johan says is just so true. And I think it rings true to all of us in our own way. But I also pick up what you just said that your father had a lot of challenges. He didn't find his career in the wonderful way that you might have done in your life. He paved the way for you to have your set off in his way and when you talk about this story you keep coming back to how he was actually happy during these 10 days and it means something to you. It gives this nuance that he was not all about hardship. He also had a good life. He also could enjoy and he saved 30 of those copies because it meant something to him. So, yeah, I just wanted to take that nuance there because I think what's important in this for you, maybe, and I might be out of my league here. But is that to find a way where you can stay connected to that nuanced picture of your father and what he gave you and how it impacted you in your life. And it's not connected to this magazine, It evokes in you.

Sally Libby:
You were overcome, Michael, and why? What do you think you're feeling?

Michael Small:
That's unbelievable. I mean, I cried at every episode of your show, by the way. Especially the last episode. Both Cindy and I had to use half a box of Kleenex. We were dripping.

Sally Libby:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
But wow, you just, I didn't even see that coming. Yeah. I didn't even see that coming at all. And you. If you were a carpenter, you hit that nail so much on the head, it's scary.

Ella Engstrom:
I mean, that's maybe why you also hold on to those many boxes with the things that reminds you of what life you have had in your career with what you have worked with as well.

Michael Small:
Whoa. Yeah. That is intense. Yes. You know, I was thinking one of the things I was going to say to Kat is I felt you were so amazing on the show. Do you ever do therapy by Zoom because we should put all the information on our website if you do.

Katarina Blom:
I do. I think I'm always surprised and amazed how well things work through the screen.

Michael Small:
Okay. Anyone who just witnessed what Kat did for me, we're putting your information on our website thro and you too can have your life kind of open before your eyes. The last thing that we have to do before we go -- I hope this is very quick -- but I just want to also point out, and it may relate to what you just said, I did save every card and letter I've received pretty much in my life. And I did take the time to separate them by sender. But the reason why I value this is like, if somebody does die, I can go and take out that envelope and relive and go through. Like, this is everything Sally sent me. And remember, we've known each other since fifth grade. I was going through it last night laughing my ass off. In fact, Cindy said, "What's going on in there? You're not prepared for the podcast." And I was like, "Yes, I am." But I just pulled out... I gave Sally a loan at one point, almost 50 years ago. So she wrote me a thank you note afterward. And on the back it says...

(Reading)
Your generosity and implied goodness slightly surpassed your grating personality and ingratiating demeanor. I always told you to leave me a loan. Now you have and I can't get enough.
(Reading ends)

So I have hundreds of Sally jokes and puns in this envelope. Should I keep it till she's gone if she goes before me? Or?

Johan Svenson:
Yes, definitely.

Michael Small:
All right, just to summarize, I have claimed that I am the worst Swedish Death Cleaner in America. Do you think I can make that claim or?

Sally Libby:
Well, there's always room for improvement.

Johan Svenson:
So you could work for that. Always room for improvement.

Ella Engstrom:
That was before you met us, you know, as well.

Katarina Blom:
I think you've been very open to our ideas. You're like, "Yeah, I will consider leaving this Rolodex to the film industry."

Sally Libby:
Could I ask a last question? If someone came up to any one of you now and wanted the process done, what would you say? And would you call the others? And how would that work?

Johan Svenson:
I would call the police. Stalkers.

Katarina Blom:
We actually already had this happen in Sweden, that people reach out to us and want some help. And sometimes I might feel like this is more suitable for one of the others. And sometimes I know Ella reached out to me like, "I think my client needs like one or two sessions with you."

Ella Engstrom:
Right.

Michael Small:
And your TV show can be seen in what countries?

Johan Svenson:
You can see it in Australia. You can see it in New Zealand.

Ella Engstrom:
India.

Johan Svenson:
Here in Sweden.

Sally Libby:
Well, we're so hoping it comes back.

Johan Svenson:
Yeah, us too.

Michael Small:
Sally and I both signed up for Peacock Channel just to see this show.

Sally Libby:
Just to see you.

Johan Svenson:
Oh, love it, yeah.

Michael Small:
The Gentle Art of Swedish Death Cleaning. We highly recommend it to everyone. It was so entertaining and heartfelt and enlightening about our favorite topic. So we encourage others to watch it. Before we go, is there anything that any of you want to add that you didn't get a chance to say?

Ella Engstrom:
Give Swedish Death Cleaning a chance. Because it's gonna serve you and your loved ones.

Johan Svenson:
Yeah, exactly. Give the Death Cleaning a chance. Yes, that's right. Absolutely. Give it a chance, give it a chance.

Ella Engstrom:
Yeah, yeah, just do it. Get your shit together.

Michael Small:
If you enjoyed hearing the Swedish Death Cleaners, please share this episode whatever way you wanna share, like send somebody an email, put it on social media, go to Apple podcasts and give us a review. And remember, you can follow us on Instagram and Threads at throwitoutpod. And you can go to our website, which is at throwitoutpodcast.com where you'll see pictures of all the delightful and wonderful treasures that I shared with the Swedish Death Cleaners today. We think they are three of the best people in Sweden or any country.

Sally Libby:
Yes, yes.

Michael Small:
So thank you so much and hope we'll see you again.

Ella Engstrom:
Thank you.

Johan Svenson:
Thank you!

Katarina Blom:
Yes, thank you so much! 


[Theme song begins]

I Couldn't Throw It Out theme song
Performed by Don Rauf, Boots Kamp and Jen Ayers
Written by Don Rauf and Michael Small
Produced and arranged by Boots Kamp

Look up that stairway
To my big attic
Am I a hoarder
Or am I a fanatic?

Decades of stories
Memories stacked
There is a redolence
Of some irrelevant facts

Well, I couldn't throw it out
I had to scream and shout
It all seems so unjust
But still I know I must
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out

Well I couldn't throw it out
Oh, I couldn't throw it out

I'll sort through my possessions
In these painful sessions
I guess this is what it's about
The poems, cards and papers
The moldy musty vapors
I just gotta sort it out

Well I couldn't throw it out
Well I couldn't throw it out
Oh, I couldn't throw it out
I couldn't throw it out

[Theme song ends]

END TRANSCRIPT