The Funniest Movie You Never Saw

I Couldn't Throw It Out
Season 2, Episode 22 - The Funniest Movie You Never Saw

Michael Small:
In this episode of I Couldn't Throw It Out, we're gonna share something that was almost impossible for you to see for 50 years. And even today, almost no one knows about it. It's a movie, and in my opinion, it's the funniest movie that you've never seen. But before you get the title and start streaming, you just might wanna hear a little bit more about it. So keep listening...

[theme song excerpt starts]

I couldn't throw it out
I had to scream and shout  
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out
Before I turn to dust 
I've got to throw it out

[them song excerpt ends] 

Michael Small:
Hello, Sally Libby.

Sally Libby:
Hello, Michael Small.

Michael Small:
Now I know this is gonna sound like an exaggeration, but I have been waiting most of my life for this episode of I Couldn't Throw It Out. And that's because finally, after 50 years of waiting, I get to share my favorite movie of all time. Now, I think it's fair to say that this is the funniest movie that no one has ever seen, except maybe four people. And I am extremely happy that two of those four people will be joining us a little later in this episode. One of them has a perspective about the movie that is very different from my own, at least until I talk with him and change his mind. And the other guest, this person, actually appeared in the movie. And this person had an extremely close relationship with the two lead actors in the movie. I cannot wait to get to that. But there's another key person who knows about this movie and that person is you, Sally Libby. How many times have you heard me talk about this movie?

Sally Libby:
Could be up in the millions.

Michael Small:
So now I'm gonna give you a little quiz to see if you were indoctrinated to the full extent. And we'll begin with what is the name of the movie?

Sally Libby:
The Tiger Makes Out.

Michael Small:
Yep, The Tiger Makes Out. To those of us in the know, it has such a beautiful ring to it. And Sally, what year did this movie come out?

Sally Libby:
1967.

Michael Small:
Excellent. And that's a very important point because you cannot go into this movie expecting jokes about Taylor Swift. These are 56-year-old jokes. And if that makes anybody hesitate, I would like to remind all of you that somebody like Aristophanes wrote jokes for the Greeks about 2400 years ago, and they still get big laughs. Sal, you still laugh at those old jokes, right?

Sally Libby:
I sure do.

Michael Small:
So now tell us more of your knowledge, like who are the two lead stars of this movie, and what do you know about them?

Sally Libby:
Okay. Eli Wallach is the male lead, and Anne Jackson is the female lead, and they were married, and Eli Wallach was in The Magnificent Seven. The Good, Bad, and the Ugly. And he was also in The Godfather 3. Let's see, it was in 2011. Eli won an Oscar, a lifetime achievement award. And he and his wife were in many Broadway plays together.

Michael Small:
Yes. They were on TV, they were in movies. They were actors who acted their whole lives. And I wonder if you could tell us there was another famous actor in The Tiger Makes Out. Who was that?

Sally Libby:
Dustin Hoffman in his very first role.

Michael Small:
Exactly. That's some pedigree, Dustin Hoffman. It's a small role, I have to admit that. But still, I think there are a few other badges of honor for this movie, such as Sally, who directed The Tiger Makes Out, and what was he known for?

Sally Libby:
It was Arthur Hiller, who directed The Tiger Makes Out, and he also directed Love Story. That was about three years later.

Michael Small:
You have proven that you have listened to your friend. You get an A plus for that.

Sally Libby:
Thank you. I think we need to mention one more credit. The movie was written by Murray Schisgal, and he and Dustin Hoffman stayed friends after they were done filming. So about 15 years later, Murray was asked by Dustin to write another funny movie called Tootsie. And it was a huge hit, one of the most popular comedies of all time, and it was written by the same guy.

Sally Libby:
Yay!

Michael Small:
Now, I think we've got to actually say what this movie is about. Would you like to give a summary?

Sally Libby:
Mike, I think you're a better summarizer, so we'll give the floor to you.

Michael Small:
If you're going to insist, I will say that I tried to give it a little bit of thought in case you needed some corrections. But I would say that this movie is about a middle-aged guy in New York City, and he works as a mailman and he is furious. that no one appreciates him. And he decides to force someone to notice him by kidnapping a beautiful young woman and he kidnaps the wrong woman. He ends up by mistake with Gloria. She's a wife and mother who feels totally superior to her suburban life. And when they get to know each other, turns out he's kidnapped a woman who is his perfect match. Did I do it justice?

Sally Libby:
I would say so.

Michael Small:
But Sally, now I wanna ask you, do you remember when I first told you about The Tiger Makes Out?

Sally Libby:
It was decades ago, back in high school.

Michael Small:
I believe it was 1973, we were in 10th grade, and I was such a loser, because on weekend nights, I'd be home watching TV while you were out partying, and my parents and my brother, they were out partying, they were probably partying with you. I just flipped through the channels and watched whatever happened to be on, and apparently, the networks knew. that I was the only one watching, so they'd play movies that nobody wanted to see. I remember the first time they played The Tiger Makes Out, I was like, Oh my God, I cannot believe it. I will never see a movie as funny as this again. I've gotta tell someone, and that someone was you, but here's the interesting part. When did you first see the movie, and how did you get to see it?

Sally Libby:
I saw the movie maybe about two weeks ago on... the free network Tubi. So it was my very first time.

Michael Small:
This is the most amazing thing because after I saw the movie in 1973, I wanted to see it again and I wanted to show it to you. But back then there was no Netflix, no videotape. The only option was to watch the TV listings every single day and hope the Tiger Makes Out would appear. Guess how often I saw this movie?

Sally Libby:
I would say at least five or six times.

Michael Small:
No, total of three times.

Sally Libby:
That's it?

Michael Small:
It wasn't ever on. And when videotape came out in the 70s, they never released The Tiger Makes Out. I waited for it. I even wrote to a videotape company requesting this movie, but they never got back to me and it never came out. And then I got one of the best gifts I have ever received in my life. And I have it right here. It's a very precious treasure whose fate will be decided in this episode. And what it is a DVD disc that was given to me by our friend Peggy. She happened to know Eli Wallach, the star of The Tiger Makes Out. So she called him and asked him to make a copy for me. Which he did! And here it is. He wrote the title and his name on it.

Sally Libby:
Oh wow.

Michael Small:
You'd think I'd be totally set. But... It turns out that even Eli couldn't get a legit copy of this movie. He had used his video camera to tape the Tiger Makes Out off his television screen. So the quality was just terrible and you could barely watch it. You couldn't hear it. So when DVDs came out in the nineties, I started waiting for this movie. When it finally came out, it was 2014. Everyone had been streaming movies for years at that point. So of course, no one I knew was gonna shell out money for this DVD.

Sally Libby:
Right.

Michael Small:
And not one streaming service was showing the movie. Even a month ago, I was convinced that the movie could not be streamed. I went through Google, but I couldn't find it anywhere as usual. But I was so desperate that I kept scrolling, and there it was! It is now available at Tubi.com so everyone can watch it just the way you did Sally. But as if that's not enough of a miracle for one episode, here comes an even better one in the form of our first guest. She happens to be, listen to this, the daughter. of my two favorite actors, the stars of The Tiger Makes Out, Eli Wallach and Anne Jackson. Woohoo! Yes, she's an actress who also runs a jewelry store called Shoplift in Amagansett, Long Island. And I wrote to her in the contact form on her website. And she called me within 30 minutes. And she told me that she'd talk to us about her parents and the funniest movie ever made.

Sally Libby:
Amazing.

Michael Small:
Katherine, hello.

Sally Libby:
Hi, Katherine.

Katherine Wallach:
Hi, Sally. It's such a pleasure to be here with you, Michael and Sally.

Michael Small:
Katherine, you told me something yesterday that blew my mind, which is you are in this movie.

Katherine Wallach:
That's right. I played a child who was pulling up crabgrass, and that is how I ended up getting my SAG card. I thought I did a magnificent job of pulling that grass to the point where... They had to kind of slow me down.

Sally Libby:
Oh, overachiever.

Michael Small:
For those who are going to see the movie because they haven't had a chance till now, that scene is one of the great satire scenes of suburban life where the neighbors next door to the main character are so obsessed with crabgrass that they actually pull up their entire lawn by hand in a frantic warlike mode trying to get rid of crabgrass.

Sally Libby:
How old were you then?

Katherine Wallach:
I want to say I was nine when the film came out. It must have been about eight when we shot it.

Sally Libby:
Uh-huh. And did you watch the whole film when it was done?

Katherine Wallach:
Yes, many times. I don't know if I really kind of got it, where now I watch it and it's just the scenes where they're going at each other is just so delicious. And it's also, there's quite a bit of stuff that's inappropriate, one could say, for these days. You know? where we're encouraging a man to throw a woman over his shoulder and smack her butt and kidnap her.

Sally Libby:
Right.

Katherine Wallach:
It could be perceived as pretty inappropriate, but Murray Schisgal was a dear friend of our family. He wrote so many plays that they did. Twice Around the Park was something that my folks did on Broadway. He and Renee, his lovely wife, were always at the house and just such mensches.

Michael Small:
Do you remember anything about being on the set of the movie?

Katherine Wallach:
Yes, I remember Bob Dishy just being so funny.

Michael Small:
And let me just add that Bob Dishy plays Anne Jackson's suburban husband. He gets in a car accident, and all 10 of his fingers are taped up in splints, which leads to a lot of slapstick.

Katherine Wallach:
And he just did the most inappropriate, delicious things with those fingers of his. He just has amazing deadpan. One of the funniest people I've ever, ever come across. I guess I just really thought I was the star of the show. I just remember we spent a lot of time down on our hands and knees pulling away at that grass.

Sally Libby:
Did that lead to more grass pulling roles?

Katherine Wallach:
It did lead to a career, kind of a side career. I'm also a jewelry designer. I have a shop now actually, and that's also a family business, but yeah, I've been acting in... and doing film, theater, and television since I was that age.

Michael Small:
So going back to a little more detail, you had parts in the movies Gangs of New York, Pollock, Goodfellas.

Katherine Wallach:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
And then you've been on TV in Law and Order, Knots Landing, All My Children. Were any of those roles... was there one that stood out or one that you love more than the others?

Katherine Wallach:
I think probably the theater. Like we did The Diary of Anne Frank, all four of us.

Michael Small:
And by all four of us, you mean your mom, your dad, you and your sister, not your brother, right?

Katherine Wallach:
Yeah. And that was kind of really iconic. That went for 600 performances in New York City.

Michael Small:
Who did you play in Anne Frank?

Katherine Wallach:
I was Margot. I was the older sister. Although I'm the younger sister, my sister played Anne.

Michael Small:
Who did your mom play?

Katherine Wallach:
Mrs. Frank. and my dad played Otto. And a lot of people came from Holland and showed us their numbers and were friends of the Franks and were like really so moved that we did a production as a family.

Michael Small:
Was that in the 60s or 70s?

Katherine Wallach:
No, that was, I think I was 20. So I wanna say I was like 40 years ago.

Michael Small:
In the 80s.

Katherine Wallach:
And we did also The Waltz of the Toreadors. That was a United States tour. And that was also as a family. I was 15 at the time. There may be nothing commercially exciting, but those are the things that really resonate with me.

Michael Small:
I know it's your dad's movie in a way, but I was blown away by your mother's performance in The Tiger Makes Out. The reason why it's so funny to me is that she is so adamant about her role. She never acts like it's a joke. It's so funny because she stays so much in this obsessed role of her character.

Katherine Wallach:
But they always said about comedy, both my our parents would say that you treat it as if it's drama. It's so, that's what makes it so incredibly funny because of the devotion to taking it so seriously. Because if you're too busy kind of watching yourself and chuckling at yourself while you're doing it, you take away the comedy for the audience as well as yourself. Sometimes something happens in your life and you say you couldn't even write that. Life is just so incredibly ironic sometimes. Things that are so traumatic can also be so funny, terribly, but true.

Sally Libby:
Definitely.

Katherine Wallach:
Yeah, my mother was really, I think, sorry, Dad, but I think Pop knew that Mom was as good, if not better, than he was. She made the choice to allow him to be the center of attention. She was given the option to play Jackie Gleason's wife in The Honeymooners. moved to California and moved the whole family. And you know, she was this beautiful ingenue and she chose not to. Really? Because she wanted to have a family. And so that kind of would have been probably her big move into Hollywood kind of thing. So I think he knew he had a contender there for sure.

Sally Libby:
Did you ever live in Hollywood?

Katherine Wallach:
No. They got out of there as fast as they could. They never liked it there. I grew up in one apartment in New York City. All of us, kids did.

Michael Small:
Where was it?

Katherine Wallach:
81st and Riverside Drive, Manhattan.

Michael Small:
A great place to grow up. Do you have any other memories of growing up with two parents who were actors? Does that mean they were absent a lot? How did that affect your childhood?

Katherine Wallach:
Yes, they were absent, but we did travel most summers to wherever they were on location. We did try to have one at home when the other was working. But when they were working together, for example, when they did Luv in England, we moved to England for a couple of years. We had one lovely, lovely woman who raised us, and she was just as much a mother as our mother, and we had her forever. So she was always there with us. The things that made a difference were that people would want to befriend you because they thought you were in a famous family, or when you'd walk down the street or go into the bank or a restaurant, people would... come over and ask for autographs or want to take pictures with cameras back in those days. It was a little invasive. As a child, you want your privacy with your folks. And so that was kind of like, we were always kind of pushed aside at events and stuff as like them wanting to get to the Anne and Eli couple there. So yeah, I mean, it's not for the faint of heart, I think in some ways. You don't have a name, you're the daughter of or the son of. So sometimes if you're a... sensitive soul, you know, not so good. Luckily for me, I never really cared. Like my mother once took a taxi and the taxi driver held her hand when she gave him the tip. And she tried to grab her hand back and he looked at her and he said, are you Kathy Wallach's mother? Because he was, I guess, somebody who I had known.

Sally Libby:
Oh, that's funny.

Katherine Wallach:
She was always very proud that we were who we were without being their offspring. You know what I mean? She loved that the three of us are all very artistic on our own merit and very unusual people thanks to them. But I think we all, each one of us, pretty much stand as being very, very united with them as parents, but also very individual as people.

Sally Libby:
I wonder if you would mind just putting their personalities into a nutshell.

Katherine Wallach:
Oh, wow. My mom was an imp and very loyal. She really came out of like a really traumatic background childhood. And she just soared. That did not get her down. She was a little scrapper, a little fighter.

Sally Libby:
All right.

Katherine Wallach:
And he was extremely militant, disciplinary, very bad tempered, but also funny and very sensitive. But the way that he dealt with his sensitivity was he would be strict and tough. He didn't like to cry. He would not deal with you if you cried in there. And then, wait a minute, you're up there on the stage crying for hours. He was so funny and so loving and so generous of heart and spirit. Both of them were like, just exceptional.

Sally Libby:
So lucky you were.

Katherine Wallach:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
How long has it been since you saw The Tiger Makes Out?

Katherine Wallach:
Uh, I think I did see it about eight years ago. Yeah.

Michael Small:
Did you ever hear that same tone from your mother in real life?

Katherine Wallach:
No, she was the least pretentious person as well as he wasn't either. The two of them were so down to earth. They'd stop and talk to anybody. in later years, make films for no money for students and talk about anything anybody really asked them to do. You know, they were just really generous and fun and so in love till the 69 years of marriage or however long it was.

Sally Libby:
Sixty, wow.

Katherine Wallach:
They were in love till the very end.

Michael Small:
Do you remember them ever expressing frustrations with their careers? Were they frustrated that The Tiger Makes Out wasn't a bigger hit or anything along those lines?

Katherine Wallach:
We had kind of such a normal, not theatrically, if that's a word, kind of dinner conversation. I think my mother was frustrated sometimes with how she quietly gave up a lot for him to be the center of attention. I think that bothered her. But no, they didn't really talk about, as far as I remember, or if they did, I was so tuned out from it, because I was the youngest and like, too busy wanting to live fast and hard. Yeah.

Sally Libby:
So did people recognize them wherever they went?

Katherine Wallach:
Yeah. They were that known. Yes.

Michael Small:
I read somewhere that after the misfits, Marilyn Monroe babysat for you. Is that correct? Or was that your older siblings?

Katherine Wallach:
That's my older siblings. I think there was a birth notice, must've been one of those little cards that came with flowers that she wrote for me. But I never had any dealings with her. My brother was babysat by her. I think he was actually a little unsettled by her. He said something to the tune of, or I think maybe Danny Allentuck, who was Maureen Stapleton's son, who was my brother's best friend. Either Peter or Danny said, no, she shouldn't be a babysitter. She's too beautiful. There's something wrong with her.

Michael Small:
This is a podcast about all these things I've saved. You saw, particularly, this treasure from your father. The idea is that we would tell the stories behind them and then I would throw them out. But I mean, I'm not throwing out the- Come on. I mean, you could tell me. Do you think I should throw away the DVD your father gave me?

Katherine Wallach:
I wouldn't, no. No.

Michael Small:
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I'll take it with me to wherever I'm going. This is a real treasure. But asking you, do you save things? What are your treasures? What are your treasure that you've saved? 

Sally Libby:
Sounds like jewelry would be one of them.

Katherine Wallach:
I guess. I mean, the jewelry that I sell, I make. So I think I've saved some birthday cards from them. I've saved some iconic pieces of clothing, like a little hat or my mom's boots or a ring that dad wore all the time. I made copies for my nephews. I recently got rid of some stuff and I thought to myself, oh no, I can't get rid of that. I can't. And then I'm like, well, you know, it's just stuff and they're in there. They're in here. So, yeah, I collect a lot of stuff and I'm getting to the point where I just want to sell it to the walls. I have a whole vintage and antique room in this shop that I'm selling all sorts of things in.

Michael Small:
Are they things that you've collected over the years?

Katherine Wallach:
Mm-hmm. We had a six or seven bedroom house, so there was some dishes and linens and things and all sorts of things that we had that I think I kept most of.

Michael Small:
I'm just curious, like, with the stuff that is not in your store, what's going to happen to it?

Katherine Wallach:
We gave all their archives to the Harry Ransom group in Austin, Texas. So that's where all of that lives. So that people can go and read scripts with their notes in it and look at writings of theirs and costumes and wigs and props and stuff are not there, but there's all sorts of things there.

Sally Libby:
And why there?

Katherine Wallach:
We did research and we found that was the most respected, Robert De Niro has his things there. It's the most respected way of archiving. They really treat the items with a lot of care.

Michael Small:
I'd love to include you in a little more discussion about the movie. What makes it such a great movie?

Katherine Wallach:
Well, I was going to say that, you know, this was a play, The Tiger Makes Out, was called The Typist and the Tiger. And so for our family, I mean, I ended up spending as well as my sister and brother a lot of time backstage watching them through the wings. And that play was really very, it was a very long experience for all of us and it was very much part of our lives. So when they made the movie, it was... You know, it's always interesting to see how things translate from the stage to a film. So it was kind of like the candy coated version. It was a very successful take from a play to a film.

Michael Small:
Do you remember how long the filming took?

Katherine Wallach:
No, probably about four months. But, you know, when you see couples now in films, it's rare that something is given to a couple like that film, you know. And that's testament to Murray, because I'm sure I don't know this for a fact, but I'm sure they improvised some stuff. And or they had a shorthand with Murray that was just incredible. He absolutely was on my mother's team. Full on. It's an iconic film.

Sally Libby:
This might be a dumb question, but were they friends with Hume Cronin and Jessica Tandy?

Katherine Wallach:
Yes. And they did theater with them as well. Yes. Called Promenade All. They did a United States tour. I think they went to Connecticut with that play.

Michael Small:
So rare for couples to stay together in show business.

Katherine Wallach:
Yes, that's right.

Michael Small:
I just want to glance once more at a few things about your parents. And if you want to amend it, great. Your dad was born in 1915, which really puts him in an older generation. And your mom was born in 25, so there was a 10 year difference between them. And he was Jewish and she was Catholic. Were you raised Catholic?

Katherine Wallach:
Neither.

Michael Small:
And that they met while performing in the play, This Property is Condemned by Tennessee Williams in 1946.

Katherine Wallach:
Correct. I think they did several Tennessee Williams things along the way.

Michael Small:
They married two years later in 1948. They were married for 19 years, if I'm right, before they made The Tiger Makes Out. And Anne wrote a memoir called Early Stages in 1979. And Eli wrote a memoir called The Good, The Bad, and Me in 2005. Did you have any thoughts about those books, Katherine?

Katherine Wallach:
Yeah, my mother's book is written in dialect from her Croatian father. And my mother's book stands as a beautiful piece of literature. My mother starts where she's a child, and it goes to when she becomes an actress. It's not about her per se as an actress. It's about where she came from, who she came from, and her life before. Dad's was THE book, like the Bible, but mom's was, it's the book that I read every once in a while, just because it's just beautifully written. Our dad's book is available on Amazon, Books on Tape. It's called The Good, The Bad, and Me in My Antidotage. You can go to Books on Tape and actually listen to him narrating his own book.

Sally Libby:
And your mom's?

Katherine Wallach:
Not available on tape, no.

Sally Libby:
What is it called again?

Katherine Wallach:
Early Stages.

Michael Small:
And your dad, he died when he was 98.

Katherine Wallach:
That's right.

Michael Small:
In 2014.

Katherine Wallach:
Yep.

Michael Small:
And Anne died at 90, 2016. I guess those two years without him must've been tough years.

Katherine Wallach:
She never looked back. She really didn't. They both had versions of dementia and hers was short-term memory dementia. She used to say that he was working. She liked to say that she knew he wasn't, but she liked to think that he was off working.

Sally Libby:
Oh, yeah.

Katherine Wallach:
She never even talked about him being gone, really.

Sally Libby:
Oh, wow.

Katherine Wallach:
That generation just does, you know?

Sally Libby:
That's right.

Katherine Wallach:
Whatever. It's like you just keep on keeping on.

Michael Small:
We just love talking with you, love seeing your parents in your face.

Sally Libby:
I know, really. Two beautiful faces. We see it in you.

Michael Small:
I want to just go back and repeat. The name of your store is? Shoplift.

Sally Libby:
You can't forget that.

Michael Small:
It's a jewelry store. There's one in Amagansett. And you said you've got a shop online at Katherinewallach.com right?

Katherine Wallach:
Yes.

Michael Small:
You're going to be starring in and producing a film. What is it?

Katherine Wallach:
I actually wrote a film that I'm shooting next summer. It's a lovely role for myself. It's written in three languages. I speak fluent Italian. It's actually quite magical and tragic and lovely and it's very interesting.

Sally Libby:
Does it have a name?

Katherine Wallach:
The Garden.

Michael Small:
Okay, well, we'll all be looking for The Garden and in the meantime, we'll all be laughing at The Tiger. So thank you so much.

Sally Libby:
Thanks, Katherine.

Katherine Wallach:
Sure.

Michael Small:
Bye, Katherine.

Sally Libby:
Bye bye.

Michael Small:
Now, Sally, I know that Katherine helped me decide what to do with the DVD that her father gave me. I'm keeping it, but we still have to decide. whether I can keep the official DVD that I've saved, the one that actually is good enough to watch and hear.

Sally Libby:
Right.

Michael Small:
So we've invited one more guest who can help with that decision. He did exactly what you did and what I hope others will do. He watched The Tiger Makes Out on Tubi.com. I'd like to introduce my pal, Walker Stevenson, who so generously agreed to help us discuss various aspects of The Tiger Makes Out.

Sally Libby:
Welcome Walker.

Walker Stevenson:
Thanks for having me, Michael. Nice to meet you, Sally.

Sally Libby:
You too, Walker.

Walker Stevenson:
I know why Michael brought me on because we've never quite agree on anything. We like each other. We've known each other 30 years. Our taste is so very different. What he thinks is funny. I don't think it's funny.

Sally Libby:
I sense a dark cloud coming in here.

Walker Stevenson:
It's a unique relationship. We really get along. We don't appreciate things the same way, so this will be very interesting.

Michael Small:
I think I could guess that this was not your favorite movie, correct?

Katherine Wallach:
You know me so well. I have to say yes, it wasn't my thing, but I'm eager to hear you tell me what you loved so much about it, because I know it's one of your super most favorite movies ever.

Michael Small:
That's for sure. Well, thank you, because what I'm going to try to do is convince you to love it as much as I do. I don't know if I'll succeed, but I'm going to give it a try. One thing I will say is that The Tiger Makes Out is a satire and some of it could be called silly. And I love satire and farce, the sillier the better. And I think it's fair to say Walker that I have not known any satire or farces that you enjoy.

Walker Stevenson:
You know, it's funny. Yeah. And yet, and yet I love like, give me Naked Gun and I'm off to the races. So funny.

Michael Small:
It is so funny.

Katherine Wallach:
It's slapstick, it's got terrific characters. It's not that I don't find things funny.

Michael Small:
No, I know you find things funny. And I agree on Naked Gun. It's really sort of a sad moment because we're actually agreeing about a movie after all these years. What about Mr. Bean? Do you find him funny?

Walker Stevenson:
No.

Michael Small:
Okay, I do. I will also say that in 1967, the New York Times had a reviewer named Bosley Crowther and he called The Tiger Makes Out howlingly funny. And you know I howled. So Walker, is there a reason why you didn't howl with me?

Walker Stevenson:
Well, basically it's funny because there was tons of slapstick and tons of very old fashioned kind of sight gags. It was very meta. And I think I'm thinking that's maybe why you liked it. And it alarms me that you were nine when you saw this and felt this way.

Michael Small:
I was 15. What do you mean by being meta? You said that I liked it because it's meta.

Walker Stevenson:
Knowing you, I think what you liked about it probably was how it poked fun at things. Like, oh, this is so interesting. They're poking fun at suburbia and they're poking fun at pretensions. I could see those elements, but I think that in terms of entertainment, I'm more interested in the brute force comedy, you know, the low, really low brow.

Sally Libby:
I'll admit I didn't laugh out loud.

Walker Stevenson:
Man, there you go.

Sally Libby:
But I did think it was amusing.

Walker Stevenson:
I'll tell you, there was a lovely moment that I really felt moved by and it made me laugh because sort of in recognition of the humanity and how charming it was when he's starting to feel like she's human and she starts to tell him about the raffle and he reaches into his pocket and he's going to buy a raffle ticket.

Michael Small:
He kidnaps a woman and ends up buying a lottery ticket from her. That is funny.

Walker Stevenson:
It's a quiet, smitten moment and I laughed because it was so charming, just like sometimes you laugh when you hear a piece of music that just did something terrific.

Michael Small:
Speaking of terrific, there's a spelling bee where the mailman and the woman he has kidnapped compete to prove who is smarter. And he is so gleeful when she makes a tiny mistake. I have a clip of that so we can relive it. Here goes.

[Audio excerpt starts]

Eli Wallach:
Well, you know so much, do you? Who wrote the Divine Comedy?

Anne Jackson:
Dante.

Eli Wallach:
When was the Civil War?

Anne Jackson:
Oh, between 1861 and 1865.

Eli Wallach:
How do you spell concatenation?

Anne Jackson:
Concatenation? C-O-N-C-A-T-E-N-A-T-I-O-N.  How do you spell pulchritude?

Eli Wallach:
Pulchritude, capital P-U-L-C-H-R-I-T-U-D-E pulchritude, physiology.

Anne Jackson:
Physiology, P-H-Y-S-I-O-L-O-G-Y, somnambulism.

Eli Wallach:
Somnambulism, capital S-O-M-N-A-M-B-U-L-I-S-M, somnambulism, resuscitation.

Anne Jackson:
Resuscitation, R-E-S-U-C-S...

Eli Wallach:
S-C! S-C!

Anne Jackson:
I-T-A-T-I-O-N.

Eli Wallach:
You stupid bird brain.

[Audio excerpt ends]

Michael Small:
Now that is what I call comedy. I keep watching it over and over, you know, now that it's available on Tubi. And Cindy... keeps checking like what is all that laughter in there? What is going on? But I can't stop laughing. Like that scene where the woman falls through the floor. She is first a distressed person in her underwear with her foot through the floor. By the time he comes back, much like everybody I knew in suburbia, uh-oh, people are coming over, we have to put on a show. She has put on a hat and a coat and is pretending like he just dropped in and won't he have some tea. While her foot is through the floor. Don't you find that funny?

Walker Stevenson:
Now that you're describing it.

Michael Small:
Now I would like to also point out that Buster Keaton's One Week, the funniest silent movie ever made in my opinion, people they go through the floor like that and they go through the ceiling like that. When Eli Wallach goes running down the stairs and then back up again, they play a player piano to sort of remind you that this is a reference to silent movies.

Walker Stevenson:
Also I think that you would then say that periodically, it tries to be funny by speeding up by under cranking so that he races off really fast to the distance.

Michael Small:
Yes. When he accidentally lassoes the fire hydrant and runs off with the fire hydrant attached to his leg.

Sally Libby:
Right.

Michael Small:
Which when I say it, you're smiling. I see you laughing. Because it is funny that he lassoes a fire hydrant and runs off with the fire hydrant attached to his leg.

Sally Libby:
Maybe it's funnier when you say it rather than seeing it.

Walker Stevenson:
I think it's funny that you love it. So, yes, I feel warmly about that in the same way I laugh when he buys the raffle ticket.

Michael Small:
While we're talking about comedy history, I want to point out a few other things. In this movie, there are tons and tons of people struggling with bureaucrats, which I find incredibly funny. Do we remember Gogol? Do we remember Kafka? Because that is exactly what they were doing. The humor of dealing with bureaucrats who don't understand anything.

Sally Libby:
Take a number and wait and wait and wait.

Michael Small:
Yeah. And I even captured that, a little audio of that, of when he is in line waiting to try to get help with his landlord and no one will help him. When you go to the registry of motor vehicles, you feel exactly what he felt. And so he steals the number from someone who has a lower number and he cuts in line. And I'm going to play this little clip so people can hear it of what happens when this poor guy trying to get justice cuts in line by stealing somebody else's number.

[Audio excerpt begins]

Man 1:
This number 110. He's a line breaker.

Clerk:
I should have known as much.

Policeman:
Okay, wise guy, this number is disqualified. Number 110 is disqualified for line breaking. Move along.

Announcer:
Number 110 is disqualified for line breaking.

[Audio excerpt ends]

Michael Small:
So there's an example of classic comedy right there. Did any of that affect you, Walker, that I'm tying it in with comedy history?

Walker Stevenson:
Well, it's an intellectual appreciation. Again, it's not lowbrow enough. You know, Gogol, thanks to you, probably, I read Gogol, Dead Souls, and it skewered all these pretensions. The guy sort of picaresque the same way this is. He goes around, he keeps meeting horrible people, but it wasn't funny.

Michael Small:
And I laughed my ass off.

Walker Stevenson:
There you go. I love this about our relationship, Michael.

Michael Small:
One of the things I worry about when recommending this movie is that the music in particular is very 1960s is outdated. Were you put off by things where you're just like, this is 1960s, I can't relate to this. 

Walker Stevenson:
It has a fun sort of paisley groovy theme, which I think is great. It's great that it sets the 60s. The music was fine. Where it rubbed me a little bit the wrong way was when it was trying to support the joke. Like when you have goofy carnival music when somebody's running around really fast.

Michael Small:
Another thing I wanted to ask about in terms of being outdated. This is something Katherine Wallach mentioned when we spoke with her. This bumbling guy kidnapping a woman. Can we still laugh at that today?

Walker Stevenson:
I don't think so. I think the kidnapping of somebody and tying them up and telling them to shut up and on top of it telling her to take off her skirt is very challenging.

Michael Small:
I think it's about context because we're laughing at him. We're not condoning his behavior. We're laughing at his whole macho thing that he's trying to do.

Walker Stevenson:
I could see him trapping somebody and wanting to talk, but the sexual element and the idea that he was going to rape her was either extraneous or at least unclear.

Michael Small:
Sally, did you think he was going to rape her?

Sally Libby:
Actually, it really didn't enter my mind. I just found that when they were getting closer and closer, I just loved that.

Walker Stevenson:
But when he started out, he has her take off her skirt. And there's a goofy thing that underneath her skirt she's wearing a muumuu kind of a printed skirt.

Michael Small:
No, that's a slip. My mom had a slip exactly like that. A slip with like a paisley pattern on it. To me, that was even proving my point, which is that all he wanted to do was to tell somebody to do something. He tells her to take off her skirt when she is actually still fully clothed when she takes it off. So she's not any bit more exposed. And he doesn't care. They just go on like nothing. That's what he wanted, to tell somebody to do something and they did it.

Sally Libby:
Right, and that keeps happening over and over where she's not supposed to do anything until he says it's okay. And then, you know, she ends up standing up and going walking over and getting a cigarette and very comfortable with it all. And that was really charming.

Walker Stevenson:
Yes, but do you think that would fly now?

Michael Small:
If Ali G for instance, or some other funny person like that were to do the same scene today, he could probably pull it off so that people would laugh and find it funny today.

Walker Stevenson:
Because it's so exaggerated. He's so kind of zany and in a way sort of off the wall that it's not shocking.

Michael Small:
Yes. Don't we end up sympathizing with him because we really do see that he was just a lonely guy who was trying to get companionship of some kind.

Walker Stevenson:
Sure. We hope something good will happen. I'm not sure he went about it in the right way.

Michael Small:
No, but people going about things in the wrong way has been the source of comedy since that for thousands of years.

Walker Stevenson:
Oh, absolutely.

Michael Small:
Now I want to go back to something you said earlier, which is the performances. I think Anne Jackson's performance is the best thing about the movie.

Walker Stevenson:
I have to say. Anne Jackson was fantastic. Yes. You've got to say what a pro she did a great job.

Michael Small:
We actually 100% agree. The control, the pauses, the way she looks. the movement of her body, even when she first comes out and she's got curlers in her hair and she's getting the mail and watching the neighbors. She just can't even move her head all the way over to acknowledge those people next door because she's so much better than them. And I felt like it was a physical coup. Like she was so in that role that she never wavered for a minute.

Walker Stevenson:
Oh yeah, yeah. She's fantastic. That is the sign of a great actor. A terrific performance. And that's why clearly she had such a legendary career. So tell me about the leading man. What was it you liked so much about the Eli Wallach performance?

Michael Small:
He had a very difficult thing to do. He had to make a transition. He had to soften, and he did. Yes. He carried off the most ridiculous scenes by sticking with his frustrated feelings, with his body, with his appearance, with everything that I thought was amazing.

Walker Stevenson:
I have a question, Michael, what do you make of the scene -- I'm curious -- when he educates the women about mail.

Michael Small:
Oh my God. I love that scene. Yes. Sally describe the scene.

Sally Libby:
He was a mailman and they're surrounding him and wanting their mail right away. Give it to me, take it out of your pack and give it to me. So he leads them outside and they're in a, in a horseshoe and he's lecturing them about how they should behave.

Michael Small:
And it's like, he's a drill sergeant. He's like Patton. It's almost a parody of Patton.

Walker Stevenson:
Right. Was it funny?

Sally Libby:
I'll say again, amusing.

Michael Small:
So why was it funny? Because this brings me to my next point that I wanted to make. It's not just the two leads. Every single freaking person in this movie is dedicated to their cause, their character. When he gives them that lecture and he walks away, they leave the camera on the faces of these old women and they look like a bomb has just dropped in their neighborhood and they are in shock. And that is why I laugh hysterically every time I see that scene. I also need to point out one off course side note. When I was watching this at age 15, did I ever think that I would live in the East Village of Manhattan? Did I even understand what the East Village was? No. But this thing was filmed a few blocks away from where I lived for 23 years. And I walked on that street to get to work. And I was going to work sometimes in a frustrated way, feeling like no one appreciated me or understood me and I wanted to give a lecture to everyone. And I basically lived out that scene later in my life.

Walker Stevenson:
That's fantastic.

Sally Libby:
That's wonderful.

Michael Small:
So I was seeing the future when I saw this movie. I would just go up to Rockefeller Center and line everybody up and give that speech and they would look shell shocked.

Walker Stevenson:
Michael, I have a question for you. When you were 15, had you ever seen anything like this? I'm thinking that was this startling because it was so original at the time that you found it earth-shaking because it was the first time you had seen sort of slapstick like this or social commentary like this?

Michael Small:
I've seen it since I think that Schitt's Creek has a similar kind of vibe, maybe Only Murders in This Building.

Walker Stevenson:
Oh, another show I cannot stand.

Michael Small:
Love every second of that show, every frame.

Sally Libby:
Oh, you guys.

Walker Stevenson:
Isn't this awesome? Friendship.

Sally Libby:
Were Ebert and Roper like this?

Michael Small:
Ha ha ha. Sally, you must have noticed some wonderful moments in my favorite movie.

Sally Libby:
How about when they're discussing trading families?

Michael Small:
Yes, these two suburban guys who live next door to each other keep trying to decide through the whole movie if they should just trade their families.

Sally Libby:
Seriously thinking about it.

Walker Stevenson:
You know, do they really want the kids? You can have him, he's not so much fun.

Michael Small:
I'm going to play you a little clip now. This is the first time they discuss trading families. You hear that also that funny kind of Laugh-In kind of music in the background. So listen to this.

[Audio excerpt begins]

John Harkins:
She's a wonderful woman, Gloria.

Bob Dishy:
Yeah. The gem of the ocean.

John Harkins:
You know how I feel about your wife, don't you Jerry?

Bob Dishy:
Hey, she's yours.

John Harkins:
I'm serious.

Bob Dishy:
So am I.

John Harkins:
Will you take Doris?

Bob Dishy:
Do I have to?

[Audio excerpt ends]

Michael Small:
I just want to point out now that we've listened to it, that the delivery of that line, would you take Doris? My mother's name is Doris.

Sally Libby:
That became a standard joke in your house. Would you take Doris?

Michael Small:
There's one other performance that I have to mention. This is the part where I cannot watch without laughing. The lines aren't that funny. It is totally the performance. Charles Nelson Riley. He's playing a university registrar with so many ticks. He seems like he's about to have a nervous breakdown any second.

Walker Stevenson:
Oh, he was great. so skillful and inventive.

Sally Libby:
But that seemed like it was really him, and you know, with all the tics. Did you ever see him on The Match Game? He was very weird.

Michael Small:
That was his persona.

Walker Stevenson:
He was so young in this movie. He wasn't a young man, but it was so much earlier than the stuff he's known for, I think.

Michael Small:
Then you have to watch Anne Jackson's face when he goes into the bathroom and starts making all these horrible noises. Her eyes. Moving around like she's thinking like, oh geez, I want my baccalaureate degree, but will I put up with this? You know, okay, see? Walker's laughing. I love it. I'm almost done with you, Walker, but I want to mention when I freeze framed it, which I hadn't been able to do till now, what I saw was that there was great satire in the set and in the props and things like that. Like for instance, near the end, Anne Jackson's on a train. And did you notice?

Walker Stevenson:
She's reading Margaret Mead.

Michael Small:
There you go. Coming of Age in Samoa.

Walker Stevenson:
I thought you might like that, Michael.

Michael Small:
Those details are so wonderful. And then he goes into a pawn shop that he thinks in order to pull off his abduction, he has to have a trench coat. They don't show the scene in other movies where he goes to buy the trench coat and try it on in front of the mirror.

Walker Stevenson:
And he alarms the guy. The salesperson thinks that something really awful is going on.

Michael Small:
And did you notice the sign on the mirror?

Walker Stevenson:
No.

Michael Small:
He's trying on this trench coat in this pawn shop and on the mirror, it says, on you, it looks good.

Walker Stevenson:
That reminds me of my favorite garment district joke. In the garment district on the bus, the man comes up in his trench coat and he exposes himself to this woman who's standing there in the bus and she goes, you call that a lining? That's comedy.

Michael Small:
I think that's very appropriate. Walker, we did get you to laugh.

Walker Stevenson:
Oh yeah.

Michael Small:
And we did get you to laugh at many scenes that I was describing exactly what you watched. So I think next time you watch a funny movie, I'm going to stand beside you and describe it to you as you're watching.

Walker Stevenson:
That'll do it.

Michael Small:
But this is exactly what I was hoping for. Like now people have a realistic idea of what to expect and many people will be like, yeah, I'll, I'll watch this and see who I agree with. So that was the goal and we achieved it. Thank you so much, Walker.

Sally Libby:
Thank you, Walker.

Walker Stevenson:
It's been great. Thank you so much. Let me just say goodbye Sally Libby. Goodbye Michael Small.

Michael Small:
Goodbye Walker Stevenson. Sally, that was so much fun. I suppose I have to confess that I started with two DVD copies of The Tiger Makes Out.

Sally Libby:
And you ended up with two DVDs of The Tiger Makes Out. Once again, not much progress in the throwing out department.

Michael Small:
But talking about the movie made me love these treasures even more. So I'm even. happier that I'm keeping them and that's a kind of victory.

Sally Libby:
To the victor, go the spoils.

Michael Small:
Exactly. It's true in this case. Before I go off happily with my decades old DVDs, I want to remind everyone that you can follow us on Instagram @throwitoutpod, and you can get much more information, including stills from The Tiger Makes Out and photos of my precious DVDs at throwitoutpodcast.com.

Sally Libby:
And I want to remind everyone about two things. After all this talk, we hope you'll watch the movie that obsessed my friend Michael for all these decades. Go to tubi.com and search for The Tiger Makes Out. It should be good for some eternal 1967 laughs. Also, if you didn't hear our previous episode about Michael's run-in with Bill Murray at the opening party for Tootsie in 1982, it's a story you don't want to miss. Especially since that was the night when Michael found someone who wanted to talk about The Tiger Makes Out. And that person was Dustin Hoffman. You'll find that episode and this one wherever you get podcasts or at throwitoutpodcast.com

Michael Small:
And that's all we got about the funniest movie you never saw. Thanks for the laughs, Sally. See you on the next episode of...

Sally Libby:
I Couldn't Throw It Out.

Michael Small:
Bye.

[Theme song begins]

I Couldn't Throw It Out theme song
Performed by Don Rauf, Boots Kamp and Jen Ayers
Written by Don Rauf and Michael Small
Produced and arranged by Boots Kamp

Look up that stairway
To my big attic
Am I a hoarder
Or am I a fanatic?

Decades of stories
Memories stacked
There is a redolence
Of some irrelevant facts

Well, I couldn't throw it out
I had to scream and shout
It all seems so unjust
But still I know I must
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out

Well I couldn't throw it out
Oh, I couldn't throw it out

I'll sort through my possessions
In these painful sessions
I guess this is what it's about
The poems, cards and papers
The moldy musty vapors
I just gotta sort it out

Well I couldn't throw it out
Well I couldn't throw it out
Oh, I couldn't throw it out
I couldn't throw it out

[Theme song ends]

END TRANSCRIPT