Dance great Martha Graham: Hear This Genius at 95

I Couldn't Throw It Out podcast
Season 2, Episode 3  -- Modern Dance Innovator Martha Graham

Michael Small:
Hello and welcome to the podcast I Couldn't Throw It Out. In this episode, we're going to revisit an interview I did for People Magazine with one of the most important artists in American history. Her impact on modern art was so huge that it put her pretty much in the same league as Stravinsky and Picasso. During her lifetime she snubbed Adolf Hitler, she had a long friendship with Helen Keller, and she even trained Woody Allen. But the strange thing is, you might not know the full story of why she was so great. You might not even know her name, which is exactly why we hope you'll follow us back to 1989 when I got to spend some time with a true American genius named Martha Graham. Keep listening.

[Song excerpt starts]

I couldn't throw it out
I had to scream and shout  
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out
Before I turn to dust 
I've got to throw it out

[Song excerpt ends]

Michael Small:
Hello, Sally Libby.

Sally Libby:
Hello, Michael Small.

Michael Small:
I'm really excited to share this latest batch of treasures. I dug them out of a box a few weeks ago, and as usual, one of the most important items is an audio cassette tape.

Sally Libby:
Will I get to hear it?

Michael Small:
You will, but just so you and everyone else can really appreciate it, we need to start with some background. Now, when I recorded this interview with Martha Graham, she was 95-years-old.

Sally Libby:
That's amazing.

Michael Small:
She was still creating new art at that age and she kept at it for two more years until she died from pneumonia. And before we go any further, I have a question for you Sally and I want you to tell me the truth. If we could go back in time and I asked you about Martha Graham, would you be able to tell me why she was so important?

Sally Libby:
Well, I knew she was a modern dancer and that would have been it. I didn't know anything else about her.

Michael Small:
Exactly. And that's the same as many people. They kind of know she was a dancer, and that's it. A lot of people are like, "Yeah, modern dance, okay, that's way too artsy for me. I'm out of here." But wait a minute, please, please hang in with us. Because I did not plan to get excited about Martha Graham. But then someone came along who got me really interested. And I hope she'll do the same for you. Her name is Janet Eilber. She was a dancer with the Martha Graham Company for many years and she went on to become an actress on Broadway. She was in movies including 1981's Whose Life Is It Anyway and now she is the artistic director of the Martha Graham Dance Company. There is no better person to help us understand why Martha was so important. Here's my interview from a few weeks ago with Janet.

[Music - Interview Begins]

Michael Small:
When I was talking with a young friend about how excited I was to include Martha Graham in the podcast, she said, "Who's Martha Graham?" Can you explain to my young friend why Martha won all these honors? What did she contribute?

Janet Eilber:
I'm trying to figure out how to make this concise. Martha Graham was one of the pioneers of 20th century American dance, which we know as modern dance. She was a leader in the modernist movement. And when you think of other leaders of the modernist movement, what America was reaching for in those days, the greats of American jazz emerged. Gershwin and Copland were creating an American sound in music. Hemingway and Faulkner, an American narrative in fiction. Frank Lloyd Wright and Georgia O'Keeffe. What all of those geniuses were doing in their field, Martha Graham was doing for dance. She created some of the most iconic masterpieces of 20th century art. Appalachian Spring, and her other works, Cave of the Heart, Night Journey. These are milestones in American art. Your young friend may not have heard of Martha Graham because dance is ephemeral. It's something you feel and absorb best in person. You go into a theater and see these things on stage. It's not like you can go to the Museum of Modern Art and the Picassos are there 24/7 for you to wander by for decades. So that's part of the challenge of my job -- to make sure that these incredible masterpieces live today and are available to future generations.

Michael Small:
You touched on the fact that dance is best enjoyed when it's live, but a lot of young people I know only watch Netflix and Hulu, and they've never been to a live play. The only live art they've been to is concerts. Is there any hope for translating dance to the medium that they use the most, or is it really gonna lose something when that happens?

Janet Eilber:
You know, it's different. That generation, when they go to those concerts, I bet they're dancing. They're moving, they're moving to that beat. The fact that dance in other media is not the same experience is true, and yet the dance on television has changed the art form considerably. So You Think You Can Dance, and Dancing with the Stars, the generation that has watched those and been engrossed by them understands that dance is hard work, that it has measurable standards. The judges are there saying, "You know, you didn't quite do that footwork fast enough or this or that,"  And that it is impassioned. that the people doing it are feeling it deep within their being.

Michael Small:
Is it possible to explain what the Martha Graham technique is?

Janet Eilber:
Sure. Martha in the mid-1920s, I would say, was very dissatisfied with American dance at the time because it was escapist, it was decorative, it was about imaginary gods and goddesses or swans or flowers or royalty, and it just didn't speak to America. And she was looking for a way to move, create a style of dance that would reveal, as she said, the inner landscape. What people were really thinking and feeling, the struggles, the challenges of being a human being, that was not on stage in dance at that time. So she began to study us, how human beings react when they're unhappy or how they hold their body when they're miserable or when they're ecstatic. And she developed a style of dancing that was really the theatricalization of body language. Those moves when you're folded into yourself, when you're unhappy, that was kind of the essence of her famous contraction, which is an exhaling of the breath and the folding of your torso. And her release that followed the contraction is a big inhale, an explosion of energy. The extremities all go out away from the center. So Martha's famous contraction and release is movement inspired and driven by the torso, the core of the body. It's very powerful emotionally, and it's very powerful physically, which is why it's lasted for almost 100 years now. And been imitated and been absorbed into other dance styles and theater worldwide. Martha's technique has been hugely influential. You know, she taught at the Neighborhood Playhouse. Tony Randall once told me she changed the course of American acting by taking this idea that your body, your movement reveals what you're really thinking and feeling. It was an influential part of the evolution of American acting.

Michael Small:
I know that Madonna took a few years of classes, but of course that was a while ago.

Janet Eilber:
That was before she was Madonna.

Michael Small:
Off the top of your head, do you see influences of Martha Graham dance in music videos or anything else?

Janet Eilber:
Absolutely. Everywhere, everywhere. What she created in the 20s, 30s, 40s was so influential that it has infused dance worldwide. I see it in the classical ballet, certainly the new choreographers are using the core of the body, they're using emotional gesture. It's no longer just about a beautiful arabesque. Any dramatic emotional material that's driven by the torso is part of Martha's influence. Certainly in music videos, in popular culture, Madonna, Sonya Tayeh, who's won Tony Awards for her Broadway material. She'll tell you flat out, she was very influenced by Martha Graham.

Michael Small:
I was telling another friend about Martha Graham and he said, "Well, I know what classical ballet is, but I don't know what modern dance is."

Janet Eilber:
I think one of the differences is that the classical ballet tries to defy gravity. They always want to look lighter than air. And it's the goal of young dancers learning classical ballet, that everything looks effortless and anti-gravity. Martha's technique is quite the opposite. She wants you to feel the earth, to leverage against the earth, to feel the reality of the weight of your own body moving through space. It's a very gutsy, athletic technique, very recognizable. That is the essential difference, that Graham dancers are taught to leverage the power of the planet, while ballet dancers are taught to hover above it.

Michael Small:
Near the end of my article, I had included some of the things about Martha ripping a phone off the wall and slapping Tammy Grimes that had been told to me by various people. And my editor moved that up towards the front. It made me wonder what it would be like to work with Martha Graham. Do you have memories of working with Martha that you want to share?  It doesn't have to be ripping the phone off the wall.

Janet Eilber:
No, she was long past ripping the phone off the wall by the time I was in the company. When I joined in '72, she would have been 78 years old. She was eloquent, insightful, demanding, hilarious. People don't realize she had a wonderful sense of humor and she enjoyed humor very much. And she expected that if you were in her studio, that you were dedicated to the art form. One of my first rehearsals with her, and I was of course in awe, she literally told me I had to get my head on straight because I had my head... I liked to tip my head at an angle that I thought was beautiful. And you know, when you're on stage, you needed to tip your head. And she told me that it was absolutely meaningless. She wanted me to understand that the angle of my head was so descriptive of my personal power, it had to be attached to my spine and to every fiber of my being, and the power of my whole body was revealed in the angle of my head. And she said, "You're doing it, it's a default position. You're not even thinking about it." That was the ultimate, horrible, you know... "You're not even thinking about it" was the most dismissive thing she could have said. That's a life lesson. Get your head on straight. Know what you're thinking and know how to communicate it clearly and powerfully.

Michael Small:
So before you joined... she had retired a few years before that and went through a very difficult period. Did you witness her decline?

Janet Eilber:
No, not really. I came in as she returned to the studio and began making new works, began relinquishing her role onstage as a dancer and began accepting her role as a choreographer, a director, and frankly as a living legend. During my time in the company in the '70s, she was celebrated for her genius. Truman Capote would visit rehearsal, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis would visit rehearsal, Betty Ford, Alexander Calder, Osamu Noguchi, Aaron Copeland would conduct the orchestra for us. People Magazine would come and interview her, ABC News. I mean, she was able to see that she would still have a role, a performative role, if you will, as a living legend. So that allowed her to be back in the studio with us and to be incredibly creative and productive for another 20 years.

Michael Small:
Can you talk to me about what's coming up for the company?

Janet Eilber:
Absolutely. Our anniversary is in 2026, but we're actually beginning the celebration this fall. We're going to celebrate for three seasons. Graham 100, we're calling it. There is a documentary in the works. There is a coffee table photo book in the works. The New York Public Library of the Performing Arts is creating an exhibit. There are new recordings of our historic scores being made. This season, we hope people will come and see the company in performance because we are remounting a historic work by Agnes DeMille, Rodeo. It's another Aaron Copeland score that's being re-orchestrated for a bluegrass ensemble. And it's being paired with a brand new piece of choreography by Jamar Roberts with a newly commissioned score from the great, great composer, musician, singer, Rhiannon Giddens. We're also going to do some pop-up performances in the Met Museum of Martha Graham solos, in conjunction with an exhibit, American Art in the 1930s. So you can wander through the museum and stumble upon a Martha Graham dancer doing Lamentation or Deep Song. We're really looking forward to that.

Michael Small:
I think I read that you've made some changes that would make it easier for my friend to go to a dance performance and appreciate it. Is that right?

Janet Eilber:
Yeah, we are constantly offering audiences new ways to understand Graham's legacy, new points of access. We always do a spoken introduction at all of our performances. It's kind of like a museum's audio tour. We just come out and speak for three or four minutes and say, "Here are a few things to look for. Here's what Martha intended, or here's a brand new work we've commissioned that you're the first audience to see." Just pointing out some things that let the audience have a way in. And then, of course, we do online video competitions. We have a school that's as old as the company. During COVID, of course, we began to do Zoom classes. So anyone anywhere can experience the Martha Graham technique. Just a lot of fun. People seem to think of modern dance as being very serious. Like we all come out with breastplates and horns or something like, you know. But as I said, people move when they hear a beat. There's a kinesthetic response to dance that everyone and anyone can understand from a two-year-old to a 92-year-old and beyond.

Michael Small:
I feel like I want to run out of here and go to a dance event right now.

Janet Eilber:
Good.

[Music - Interview Ends]

Michael Small:
So, Sally, what do you think of Martha Graham now?

Sally Libby:
I had no idea that she had so much influence.

Michael Small:
And Janet didn't even list all of her famous students. Some of the most famous choreographers, Twyla Tharp, Paul Taylor, Merce Cunningham, Alvin Ailey, all studied with her. And many actors too. Betty Davis, Kirk Douglas, Joanne Woodward, and that's just naming a few. Then there are all the honors she won. She was the first dancer to perform at the White House. This was in 1938 for the Roosevelts.  And she was the first dancer to get the Presidential Medal of Freedom. That was in 1976 from Gerald Ford.  She even won the French Legion of Honor in 1984. And it goes on and on.

Sally Libby:
Mike, how did you meet Martha Graham?

Michael Small:
I had heard that Baryshnikov was going to redo one of her most famous dances called American Document. People Magazine was different in those days. They let me do interviews with people like Martha Graham. It wasn't all about YouTube and reality TV stars back then. Her manager said she had the stamina for three interviews. So she did the New York Times, the New York Post, and me.

Sally Libby:
What was your impression of Martha Graham?

Michael Small:
She seemed somewhat frail, which is what you'd expect from someone 95 years old. When she spoke to me, I could hear the power still in her voice.

Sally Libby:
Could you call somebody stately who is only around five feet tall?

Michael Small:
It's crazy, but you're absolutely right. She did have the look that you'd expect. I looked in my notes so I can see some of these details that I wrote down. She had her hair pulled back in a big bow and she was wearing a pantsuit that Halston designed for her.

Sally Libby:
So what was it like to go to rehearsal with Baryshnikov?

Michael Small:
At a rehearsal, it was a little different because you're seeing the back and forth between Martha, the choreographer, and Baryshnikov. He was at an interesting place in his life. He was about 41 years old. He had just resigned as head of the American Ballet Theater because of a disagreement. And this was her 179th premiere.

Sally Libby:
Who was there? Just the three of you?

Michael Small:
It was kind of an odd scene. There were all these female dancers in long gowns, and they were sort of leaning on sculptures by Noguchi. He gave those to Martha to use as a set.

Sally Libby:
That's an unusual image.

Michael Small:
Bianca Jagger was there. For those who don't know, that was Mick Jagger's former wife. And Francesco Clemente, who is a very prominent painter. But Martha was not happy at all.

Sally Libby:
Why?

Michael Small:
Well, it was eight days till the performance, and... She just was a perfectionist.

Sally Libby:
I'd imagine so. Did she elaborate?

Michael Small:
The one bit of elaboration actually was in my article. Apparently she had a microphone she was talking into. And she said, "You know the dances very well. But they don't mean a thing. Maybe to someone else, but not to me. We've got a lot of work to do. There's a thing called naturalness. Can you imagine what that means to me?"

Sally Libby:
Ooh.

Michael Small:
She said that to Baryshnikov and the dancers, eight days before they were going on. I remember I wrote down in my notes a conversation where she said, "I hate all of it." And then someone said, "But Martha, everybody loves it." And she said, "I know it's wrong." And then Francesco Clemente said, "I understand. You don't even know why it's wrong. But you know." One of the performers told me that she asked Baryshnikov what he did when he disagreed with Martha. And he told her, "We're here to execute Martha's dream and what's in her imagination. We do not argue with her."

Sally Libby:
So what happened at the actual performance? Did they get it right?

Michael Small:
I'm no dance expert, but I'm pretty sure it was a very important event. For one thing, to see Baryshnikov dance -- that's a rare experience. And the piece he did was an update of American Document, a dance that Martha originally wrote in 1938. When she wrote it, her goal was to show that America was different from the countries where dictators were on the rise. And she did that partly by having a narrator read different American texts during the dance. In this case, it was read by Cecilia Peck, the daughter of Gregory Peck. Her father was one of the sponsors of the event.

Sally Libby:
That's new to me. I've never seen a dance performance with narration.

Michael Small:
Right. And she pulled in all kinds of groups and progressive ideas. Declaration of Independence, Thomas Paine, Abraham Lincoln, and Chief Red Jacket of the Senecas.

Sally Libby:
So she was like an early social justice warrior.

Michael Small:
That's one of the reasons why Baryshnikov wanted to do this. One of the other interesting things is this was never recorded. They don't remember exactly how he did it. As Janet was saying, one of the exciting things about dance is you're seeing something that's coming out of the emotions at that moment...

Sally Libby:
That moment. Mmm.

Michael Small:
...that may not ever be repeated. This was also super important because her dance company was deep in debt.

Sally Libby:
So the government didn't give arts money back then?

Michael Small:
Not enough to keep her going. So there was a big party afterward and that was an attempt to raise money.

Sally Libby:
Oh, what was the party like?

Michael Small:
It was really fancy and it was in the grand ballroom of the Plaza Hotel in New York City. They served a full dinner, but I guess I was only interested in dessert. My notes say only this -- that they served Martha's favorite dessert, which was brownies with vanilla ice cream and hot fudge.

Sally Libby:
Should we drop some names?

Michael Small:
Well, yeah, we should. Frank Sinatra was there. Calvin Klein.

Sally Libby:
Halston.

Michael Small:
Kathleen Turner. There's a name I don't really want to drop. Apparently, Ivana Trump raised money for the Graham Dance Company the year before, and she was there along with someone who was her husband at the time.

Sally Libby:
Blech.

Michael Small:
I'm surprised that he attended this and it didn't have a more positive effect on his outlook. But he was there. One of the other people on the party committee was Woody Allen. I didn't see him there, but I know he studied with her at one point and someone told me a funny story about him. Apparently he came to meet Martha at her studio, and he said almost nothing afterward. When they asked him why he was so quiet, supposedly he said this: "I'm always quiet when I'm in the presence of a genius greater than my own." That's what I was told, whether it's true or not. I'm just repeating what I heard. Of course I saved my scribbled notes from all the people who talked with me about Martha. I sent you a few of them. You wanna read the first one? 

Sally Libby:
Alrighty. Bianca Jagger, about Martha Graham: "She's one of the most remarkable women I have ever met. She's a role model to look up to. Her creation and her strength in her work. is an inspiration to me. To think that this woman is not supported by the government so she could continue creating, it's a great pity. That's the reason she's called on people like me to raise funds in an unorthodox way."

Michael Small:
I wonder what the unorthodox ways were, but anyway, that's what she said to me. I also spoke with Calvin Klein. He said, "She is one of the absolute greats of modern dance. Everything about this evening was simply grand."

Sally Libby: Cecilia Peck, daughter of Gregory Peck:  "She's so fascinating, so wise, and so courageous. What I learned has to do with being daring. It's not only possible, it's essential. Take a risk and be as bold and courageous as you can be."

Michael Small:
And then I talked with Gregory Peck, of course. For those of you who have not seen his many movies. I think you'd enjoy many of them, including To Kill a Mockingbird. And he said, "Martha taught me discipline, mind your P's and Q's, learn your fundamentals. Martha goes at it hammer and tong. There's a certain amount of agony you have to go through. I was a student at the Neighborhood Playhouse 50 years ago. She didn't try to make dancers out of us. She taught us how to move around. I've kept up that friendship for 50 years. We think it's a completion of a circle."

Sally Libby:
Lovely.

Michael Small:
So this brings us to my interview with Martha. I cut it down to 12 minutes. It was longer than that, but this was recorded for a print piece, not for a podcast. So, you know, it's not as polished as it would be. You can hear sirens in the background, people playing rehearsal music in the other room, me flipping pages on my notepad.

Sally Libby:
You would assume that when you're speaking with a legend, the person would be very full of themselves. Did she seem egotistically bloated to you?

Michael Small:
Ha ha ha. Not really, but remember at 95, she was reduced from what she may have been at one point.

Sally Libby:
Right.

Michael Small:
I think she was aware of her stature. But let me just say that I have met people with far less stature who have been much more impressed with themselves in an obvious way.

Sally Libby:
Yes.

Michael Small:
What I would say is she was focused in answering my questions. She gathered her thoughts. She was careful about what she said. She probably said it many times, but... She certainly did not treat me as if I was anything less than she was. I think you have to remember, this is a person who was born in 1894. She had started dancing in 1916 during World War I, and here she is talking to me in 1989.

Sally Libby:
That's incredible. What about her family life? Did she get married or have any children?

Michael Small:
She did marry one of her dancers, Erick Hawkins. They were married for a few years and the marriage didn't last and they didn't have any kids. But I believe I read that she was very much in love with Erick Hawkins and I would suspect that was not the only person she had a relationship with. When she was in her 70s, they said to her, "You can't perform anymore."

Sally Libby:
Who said that to her?

Michael Small:
The Company. She realized that she couldn't be a dancer anymore. She was so depressed that she started drinking heavily and got so sick that she was hospitalized. But she bounced back, and here she is 20 years after that sort of crash talking with me. She was also at the time writing a book. I think she was doing most of it through audio, but writing a book with Jackie Onassis as her editor. Some of what she said is hard to hear, certain words. She refers to the fact that she was called a goddess, and it's a little hard to hear her say the word goddess. But I think you can get most of it. And we'll also have a full transcript on the site. So finally, after all the introduction, here is my interview with 95-year-old Martha Graham:

[Interview begins]

Michael Small:
As much as I can, I'd rather have you talking instead of me talking. That way you don't have to worry as much about me just, you know, saying what I...

Martha Graham:
Oh yes you do!

Michael Small:
I know, well, maybe you do have to worry. But in any case, I've read articles and they say that you rank with Picasso and Stravinsky as one of the three premier minds of the 20th century. When you read and hear things like that about yourself, do you start to believe it yourself?

Martha Graham:
No, I never believed it. They were they themselves. With all of their wonder, their imagination. I could look at it and envy it, perhaps. But I never did to the point where I sought them, and did not seek myself. I didn't want to appear to be, having brought myself up to be, oh, wonderful and perfect and beautiful and this goddess and so on. I don't believe in that. And I don't, I don't court that. If I can avoid it.

Michael Small:
Do you consider yourself the dancer or choreographer or both?

Martha Graham:
I originally knew myself as a dancer. I didn't understand the word choreography at all. And I was concerned with dancing and with the beauty of dancing and the wonder it can reveal more than anything in the world.

Michael Small:
I read that in past years you were actually quite tough sometimes with the dancers. And I'm wondering, are you still tough?

Martha Graham:
Yes. I don't believe in mediocrity.

Michael Small:
I'm just wondering, how come so many people turn 50 and give up on life, and you've kept going? What was different for you? How did you keep going?

Martha Graham:
 I kept going because I wanted to. And because that was the fullness of life for me and I did it for no reason of being a woman's libber or this or that. And I was vain. I am vain. I continue to be vain and to fix my hair as I think it should be and makeup and that's my privilege.

Michael Small:
One thing I read is that you're 5'2" approximately...

Martha Graham:
I'm five three or four. I'm not sure.

Michael Small:
Was your height ever something you thought about? Do you think it ever held you back as a dancer? Or do you think it actually had something to do with making you a success?

Martha Graham:
Well, in certain ways, I think it made me where I am today. I accepted my body as it was, whether it was tall or little. And I dressed myself and still do in consideration of that point. My clothes, the pantsuit I'm wearing now was made by Halston. All of my street clothes are made by Halston. I have all of my evening clothes, which are terrific, made by Halston.

Michael Small:
In the past, you used to tell people when you were 40. You used to say you were younger than you were and now you're very honest about your age. Why did you change that?

Martha Graham:
The public changed it for me.

Michael Small:
Or else you'd still be doing it.

Martha Graham:
They knew that I was not quite as young as I thought I was.

Michael Small:
I know that Gregory Peck's daughter is reading the text for American Document.

Martha Graham:
Yes, she is.

Michael Small:
Do you remember anything about working with her father? Do you remember anything about how he was?

Martha Graham:
I do. I remember him from the time he was 19 years old.

Michael Small:
What was he like?

Martha Graham:
A gangly, wonderful, eager boy.

[Interview pause.]

Michael Small:
I want to pause here for a moment because Martha is about to tell me about her friendship with Helen Keller. But it's difficult to hear what she's saying. So Sally, I got you the transcript. Could you read this little bit first and then we'll listen to Martha saying the same thing?

Sally Libby:
Yes. (reading) "I remember very much Helen Keller and the wonder of her life. She would come to the studio because she felt she could feel the dance. She didn't feel the dance. She felt the vibration in her feet. One time she said to me, 'Martha, I don't understand what jumping is.' So I put Merce Cunningham at the bar and he jumped and she laughed and said, 'Oh, how wonderful. How like the mind.' I'd go to a concert with her, an opera. and she'd put her hand on the seat in front of her so she could feel the vibration. She didn't hear the sound or any part of it. She was deaf and blind. But she got something from her hands on the seat in front of her, which was a kinship with the vibration."

Michael Small:
Wow. Now let's hear Martha say those same words.

[Interview resumes]

Martha Graham:
I remember very much Helen Keller and the wonder of her life.

Michael Small:
You met her?

Martha Graham:
Of course. She would come to the studio because she felt she could feel the dance. She didn't feel the dance. She felt the vibration in her feet. And one time she said to me, 'Martha, I don't understand what jumping means.' So I put Merce Cunningham at the bar and he jumped in the first position. She laughed and said, 'Oh, how wonderful. How like the mind.' I'd go to a concert with her, an opera. I had to put her hands on the seat in front of her so she could feel the vibration. She didn't hear the sound or any part of it. She was deaf and blind, but she got something from her hands on the seat in front of her, which was a kinship with the vibration.

Michael Small:
Going back to the subject of the book you're writing about your life, did you go to Mrs. Onassis about the idea for the book, or did she come to you and say, why don't you do a book?

Martha Graham:
Oh, she came to me.

Michael Small:
Do you talk on the phone with her often about the book?
Martha Graham:
Very often.  She called me just yesterday, asked me how things were going.

Michael Small:
Is she reading it and giving suggestions and then giving it back to you? Is that how it works?

Martha Graham:
She reads everything and in time, she would give it back to me. She's very forthright and I like that.

Michael Small:
I'm curious if over the years people have written things about you that were wrong and this is a chance to get things right. Is there anything that people wrote about you that was wrong?

Martha Graham:
Not that  I'm going to correct. I cannot know what people have written about me. Some people have written terrific things about me. And one critic said that I was the goddess who belched.

[Interview pauses.]

Michael Small:
Here’s another story I want to set up. In 1936, the German government invited Martha to dance at the Berlin Olympics. Of course, she knew that Hitler was already persecuting Jewish people, and keeping them out of the Olympics. So she turned them down. But the Germans wouldn’t believe it. They sent someone to New York to convince her.  Here’s what happened…  

[Interview resumes.]

Martha Graham:
...And they asked me why and I said, I do not approve of your policy.  And I will continue not to believe in your policy.

Michael Small:
The Germans actually came to your apartment?

Martha Graham:
They wrote to me and they sent a woman to see me....

Michael Small:
Wow.

Martha Graham:
And she asked me why I would not. If I told them exactly everything, they would disbelieve it anyway.

Michael Small:
So you just had to say no.

Martha Graham:
You say no.

[Interview pauses.]

Michael Small:
There's another great story coming up that's a little difficult to hear. It's about Martha rejecting segregation on a visit to the South. Before we hear Martha tell the story, Sally, could you read it for us?

Sally Libby:
(reading) "When I was in the South at Spelman College, a student of mine was in the college. And I had lunch with them, with the girls. Then I said, 'I'll see you tonight.' And they said, 'No, we can't go tonight.' Then I realized I was held by that thing. So I spoke to the impresario, who was a local person, and I said, 'I hear you're sold out tonight.' And he said, 'Yes. Isn't it wonderful?' And I said, 'Yes, I hear it's the first time you've ever been sold out.' And he said, 'Yes.' And I said, 'There will be no show tonight unless Spelman College comes in.' I said, 'I don't believe in segregation. I want 20 seats.' Well, I got them."

Michael Small:
I love that. Now let's hear Martha.

[Interview resumes.]

Martha Graham:
When I was in the South, at Spelman College, a student of mine was in the college and I had lunch with them, with the girls. Then I said, 'I'll see you tonight.' And they said, 'No, we can't go tonight.' And I suddenly realized that we were in the hands of a very, what can I say?

Michael Small:
Racist, I guess.

Martha Graham:
In the sense of I was held by that thing. So I spoke to the impresario, who was a local person, and I said, 'I hear you're sold out tonight.' And he said, 'Yes. Isn't it wonderful?' And I said, 'Yes, I hear it's the first time you've ever been sold out.' And he said, 'Yes.' And I said, 'There will be no show tonight unless Spelman College comes in.' I said, 'I don't believe in segregation. I want 20 seats.' Well, I got them."

Michael Small:
A lot of times, especially in the very beginning, people didn't understand what you were doing at all. Reviewers would say, "We don't understand this. What is this? It's ugly." Did that upset you, or did you just ignore them?

Martha Graham:
No, I did not ignore it. I realized I had a reason for it. I realized that I had to do it in spite of that, whether they liked me or did not like me. They consider me as different. I did the thing I wanted to do and the way I wanted to do it to hell with how I wanted.

[Interview pause]

Michael Small:
There's one more story that I loved about a skeptical man in the audience that Martha was able to win over. Sally, could you read this one before Martha tells the story?

Sally Libby:
(reading) "A man in Holland, I remember, came backstage. He was standing in my door and he didn't say anything. And I said, 'Did you want to say something?' He said, 'Yes, I wanted you to know that I didn't like your dancing at all.' And I said, 'That is your privilege. You must like another kind of dance.' And the next night he was back there and I said, 'Oh, my friend, here you are again.' And he named a dance. And I said, 'Well, you don't need to worry about your feeling of the dance. That's the most difficult one we do. And I congratulate you.'"

[Interview resumes]

Martha Graham:
A man in Holland, I remember, came backstage. He was standing in my door and he didn't say anything. And I said, 'Did you want to say something?' He said, 'Yes, I wanted you to know that I didn't like your dancing at all.' And I said, 'That is your privilege. You must like another kind of dance.' And the next night he was back there and I said, 'Oh, my friend, here you are again.' And he named a dance. And I said, 'Well, you don't need to worry about your feeling of the dance. That's the most difficult one we do. And I congratulate you.

Michael Small:
Was there ever a point where you were just so down you thought I'm going to give up?

Martha Graham:
I don't think that because there was nothing else to do. You either did or you died. And I didn't have any intention of dying at that moment.

Michael Small:
You've been working so long at this. Do you ever reach a point where you don't have to worry about money anymore?

Martha Graham:
The reality is I have no money at all. And I'm constantly in need of money.

Michael Small:
Why?

Martha Graham:
Well, for the reason of the company, for the reason I exist the way I do in the company.

Michael Small:
I guess people would think that corporations would just give you huge sums of money and you'd be all set.

Martha Graham:
Oh, oh, oh, oh how wonderful that would be. How wonderful! Because then I could really concentrate on what I'm doing. But as it is, I have to do other things.

Michael Small:
I'm curious to know, are you happy? Are you happy with your life?

Martha Graham:
Yes. I wouldn't have lived the life I have lived unless I was to a certain degree happy in it. I found great happiness in my work and in everything that I did and had great feeling and honor for it and I didn't want to be anything else.

[End of interview]

Michael Small:
So that's my interview with Martha Graham.

Sally Libby:
That was great.

Michael Small:
She is wonderful. And now we get to what is for me the very hard part. Can I throw away anything relating to this interview and this event? We start with the cassette tape. The audio quality is not that good. And a lot of it is with other people who are giving me background. I don't think it would be valuable to donate this. What's more valuable is really what we've recorded here.

Sally Libby:
Yes. So bye-bye cassette.

Michael Small:
...But I don't think I can throw it out quite yet. I'm just gonna set this aside. I mean, this is Martha Graham's voice.

Sally Libby:
Yes, but we have it all here, Michael. Now, come on, we really have to get sensible here.

Michael Small:
All right, I'm going to throw something else out, I promise you, I'm going to.

Sally Libby:
Something that has nothing to do with this!

Michael Small:
No, no, no. What have we got next? This is my pitch for doing the story. I'm so proud that I wrote such a nice proposal. One of the funny things is that in my pitch I said, "She is working on her autobiography right now, and you might be familiar with her editor, my dear, dear friend, Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy and Onassis." That's how I pitched it. And then another thing I said, "Because of the October opening, I need to jump on this soon if you're interested. As you may surmise, fate and old age (not necessarily mine) may dictate that we can't do this story again if we don't do it now."

Sally Libby:
(Laughs)

Michael Small:
I'm gonna put that in the "maybe" pile. I've got things here I'm gonna throw out, I promise you. This is the article itself, of course, that I wrote. This article has beautiful photo of Baryshnikov with Martha, and then there's a picture of her with Gregory Peck and Misha at the party. We'll put it on the website. I'm gonna get to something I'm gonna throw out, but probably not that. Okay, I said I would throw something out. I think I am willing to throw out the versions of the story that I saved, the original text versions, where you can see that it got heavily rewritten. I'm willing to throw these out. Here's all my scribbled notes from the party. Gregory Peck talking to me... but I'm willing to let my scribbled notes go. And then here is typed-up all my notes. Okay, that whole stack of notes and scribbles and things, I'm gonna throw it out.

Sally Libby:
Great, let it fly.

Michael Small:
Where's the trash bin? Here we go. Boom. Alrighty.

Sally Libby:
Alrighty. (Applauds)

Michael Small:
Okay. Will we please stop saying I haven't thrown anything out?

Sally Libby:
Okay, now we've got a few things.

Michael Small:
All I've saved is this little cassette, this little article and my pitch letter. And then there's one last thing. This is the program for the Martha Graham's World Premiere Gala on October 3rd, 1989. If anybody would like this program, go to our website, throwitoutpodcast.com . Go to the contact link at the top. And if you would like the program to the Martha Graham American Document, write to me. We will leave this open until the end of October. And then we'll either do a raffle or if it's only one person, one person will get it. And if I'm the person, I get to keep it. And I think that's all we've got.

Sally Libby:
You know, there are times when I was a little bit skeptical about whether I'd be interested in the things you pulled from those boxes, but this time, Mike, you got me.

Michael Small:
Thank you, Sally. It's so crazy that I didn't get it either when I interviewed her, but I get it now.

Sally Libby:
And that 100-year celebration, Graham 100, has just started and it's going to be going on for, what is it, three years? It's all over the country and Europe. So people can go see them, right?

Michael Small:
Yeah, you can get the schedule and buy tickets on their site, MarthaGraham.org. That's MarthaGraham.org.

Sally Libby:
And if you go to the page for this episode on our website, you'll get a lot more information about Martha Graham. And while everyone's typing into their electronic devices, I want to remind you that you can follow us on Instagram at throwitoutpod.

Michael Small:
Sally, what do you say we break our tradition and give someone else the last word today?

Sally Libby:
I'm fully in favor of it.

Michael Small:
There was one quote from Martha Graham that really stood out to me. I found it on Google. This is what she said:  "No artist is pleased. There is no satisfaction whatever at any time. There is only a queer divine dissatisfaction, a blessed unrest that keeps us marching and makes us more alive than the others." I think those are pretty powerful words for anyone who has tried to create anything ever. But I actually want to end with one more thing that Martha said to me. I asked this 95-year-old if she'd still like to dance. Let's close by hearing Martha Graham.

[Interview begins]

Martha Graham:
I wish I could dance now. I wish I could be active in my body. I'm not. So I find another way, which is the beauty of the company and the beauty of their accomplishment. The fact that they too are obsessed with that extreme desire to do that thing that is so big with them. 

[Interview ends.  Theme song begins]

I Couldn't Throw It Out theme song
Performed by Don Rauf, Boots Kamp and Jen Ayers
Written by Don Rauf and Michael Small
Produced and arranged by Boots Kamp

Look up that stairway
To my big attic
Am I a hoarder
Or am I a fanatic?

Decades of stories
Memories stacked
There is a redolence
Of some irrelevant facts

Well, I couldn't throw it out
I had to scream and shout
It all seems so unjust
But still I know I must
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out

Well I couldn't throw it out
Oh, I couldn't throw it out

I'll sort through my possessions
In these painful sessions
I guess this is what it's about
The poems, cards and papers
The moldy musty vapors
I just gotta sort it out

Well I couldn't throw it out
Well I couldn't throw it out
Oh, I couldn't throw it out
I couldn't throw it out

[Theme song ends]

END TRANSCRIPT