Christmas Gifts and Hanukkah Cards: Toss or keep?

I Couldn't Throw It Out, Season 2, Episode 29
Christmas Gifts and Hanukkah Cards: Throw 'Em Out?

Michael Small:
On this episode of I Couldn't Throw It Out, we want to entertain you as you give, get, and exchange holiday gifts because we're going to talk about the unusual gifts that some of us just can't give up.

[Excerpt begins]

Eric Weiner:
This year I actually like what I got. It's called Jinkies Clean All Things. It's just a screen wipe, but it is shaped as a pickle.

[Excerpt ends]

Michael Small:
Meanwhile, we'll try to answer some important questions such as: What should you do with a holiday gift that you never loved? And is it crazy or is it cool to save all your holiday cards? To find out, keep listening.

[Song excerpt begins]

I couldn't throw it out
I had to scream and shout
Before I turned to dust I've got to throw it out

[Song excerpt ends]

Michael Small:
Hello, Sally Libby.

Sally Libby:
Hello, Michael Small.

Michael Small:
Tis the season for what, Sally?

Sally Libby:
Hoarding?

Michael Small:
Yes, judging by my past history, that could be true. But we are supposed to try to throw things out. In my case, it's holiday cards. Do you think I'm the only person who saves holiday cards or do you think this is a thing?

Sally Libby:
I bet you're in a 5 to 10 % area.I don't think people can really save everything anymore.

Michael Small:
So you get your cards, you put them out...

Sally Libby:
Yeah, have them out for, you know, two weeks or a month and then bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Michael Small:
Oof.

Sally Libby:
Bye-bye.

Michael Small:
I am not one of those people. I have holiday cards going back to 1967.

Sally Libby:
Wow.

Michael Small:
I have a feeling that even if other people save them, a very, even tinier percentage of people go back and look at them.

Sally Libby:
Absolutely.

Michael Small:
So on behalf of all those people, if there's anyone out there who is that way, I went back and I looked at all the holiday cards I had saved.

Sally Libby:
Uh-huh.

Michael Small:
I did the work.

Sally Libby:
How many are we talking about?

Michael Small:
We're talking about a relatively small number for me, which I can explain. I only had 76 holiday cards.

Sally Libby:
Not too popular?

Michael Small:
I think it's because of something that you and I often discussed and joked about, which is that the major holiday, Christmas, is not my holiday.

Sally Libby:
True.

Michael Small:
Now you're thinking that I should be throwing them out or are you going to decide after you hear more about it?

Sally Libby:
I'm just going to say blanket throw it out. You've just got so much stuff now and you're not making much progress. Sorry.

Michael Small:
We'll make that decision later. But first to offer some help with this process and to share in the process, we have something better than any holiday gift. We have four excellent guests, three of them with us now and one I spoke with separately. Each of them has saved a treasure related to the holidays, at least one treasure, and we will find out today if they can send an example for me and throw it out or if they can be like me, keep it forever. So I want to introduce them to you now, Sally, because they are new to you.

Sally Libby:
Okay, great.

Michael Small:
We're gonna start with a guy who has so many talents that Santa refused to bring him any more of those. He's an extremely talented playwright, actor, storyteller, and I am introducing Eric Weiner.

Eric Weiner:
Hi, thanks for having me.

Sally Libby:
Welcome, Eric.

Michael Small:
Now we're on to the next person who has at least three memorable talents. He's a writer and content strategist for online and print publications. He is an amazing chef and was co-owner of the late great Vico restaurant in Hudson, New York. And his third talent is he has a 40 year history of insulting me to show how much he loves me.

Sally Libby:
That's the most impressive.

Michael Small:
Meet Mark Ganem.

Mark Ganem:
I'm impressed that that's your takeaway, Michael, but thank you so much. That was a lovely introduction.

Sally Libby:
Welcome, Mark.

Michael Small:
And last but certainly not least is another person of great achievements. She is a business consultant for nonprofits. She also runs a nonprofit called Hilltown Commons that hosts workshops and community events. And she was the creator of Dough.net and Youth Noise, two of the very first websites for kids. And she's done so many other things, I can't even list them all. But perhaps most important, she met me freshman year of college in the dining hall where I was too nervous to speak to her. So please meet Ginger Thomson.

Ginger Thomson:
Thank you, Michael.

Sally Libby:
Thanks for coming, Ginger.

Ginger Thomson:
Thanks, Sally.

Michael Small:
Ginger, we need to start with something special. I'm going to ask, does this address mean anything to you? 2022 Mass Ave, apartment number one.

Ginger Thomson:
2022 Mass Ave.

Sally Libby:
That's Boston.

Ginger Thomson:
It was where we lived.

Michael Small:
Because I have a card here. And this card would date back to, I'm guessing, 1970.

Ginger Thomson:
Yes, I guess we were in college.

Michael Small:
It shows Santa being chased by about two dozen reindeer. In it, it says, please come to a small party Sunday, December 10th, 930 p.m. RSVP, love ya, Ginger.

Ginger Thomson:
Oh, my.

Sally Libby:
Do you remember that party, Ginger?

Ginger Thomson:
Do I remember? There were a few there. 2022 Mass Ave was a good gathering spot. Do you remember it, Michael?

Michael Small:
Absolutely not.

Ginger Thomson:
I feel better.

Michael Small:
But I do remember that getting a card from Ginger Thomson was so important that I saved it for, what is that, 46 years. Wow. Look at that card. And I guess the question is, to start us off, Ginger, what do you want me to do with this card? I'm going to do whatever you decide.

Ginger Thomson:
You can send it to me. I like that card. It's perfect for the holidays.

Sally Libby:
Well, that's a great idea.

Ginger Thomson:
And then next year you can ask me again.

Michael Small:
And I'll show up for that party at 2022 Mass Ave. And all those college kids who live there now will run away from this old man who shows up at their door. So now that we've done that, Ginger, I think it makes sense to move on to you and find out what is the treasure that you have saved. What are you going to do with it?

Ginger Thomson:
I have a ceramic elephant that's kind of coppery colored. I think it was given to me about 10, maybe 12 years ago by one of my closest friends in California. One of the passions I've had all my life are elephants. I love elephants. I've studied them. I worked in Kenya helping to save elephants from poaching. Elephants are just kind of a thing for me. So she very sweetly gave me this ceramic elephant. It's about 14 inches high and about nine inches around and the trunk goes straight up into the air. I've had it inside, I've had it outside, I've had it all over. About four years ago, I broke it and I felt so guilty about it. I very deftly put it back together and it was the trunk that broke. Mind you, all this time, I look at that elephant and I think, my goodness, that is really ugly. It's not a beautiful object. I think it was a Cost-Plus kind of object. So it's not like a treasured object in terms of its origin, but in terms of the love expressed, it is treasured.

Sally Libby:
Any gift from a good friend is a treasure.

Ginger Thomson:
Yes. The other day I was looking at this elephant thinking, okay, you've come a long way with me many, many miles. And a friend of mine who was helping me clean up ahead of a party, scooped by and just knocked the trunk off in a different place from the original break. And it broke. And she looked at me and she said, it's no problem. You can fix that. And I thought, yes, but do I want to fix this? Is it time? Is this the ultimate sign that now it's time to say goodbye to the elephant? So that's my throw it out or not.

Michael Small:
For me, you're asking the wrong person, because I would say, fix it and save it. But we have a few other guests here, and I think we're going to go to Mark Ganem. What's your reading?

Mark Ganem:
Well, my proclivity is the exact opposite of Michael's. I would say, throw it away. I hate throwing things away, but then... 30 seconds after I've done that, I have completely forgotten that I ever owned it. So I would say you should do the Marie Kondo thing and thank it for being in your life and then chuck it.

Ginger Thomson:
I like that. That's a good approach.

Michael Small:
Eric, do you have anything to add to that? Which side are you on?

Eric Weiner:
Well, I've been totally on the throw it out side and I've come to question that and regret it. So I vote for saving that, put it back together. It will have a more meaning. It will have more of a story to it.

Ginger Thomson:
That's true.

Michael Small:
If you were to fix it, where would you put it?

Ginger Thomson:
Well, I had it right next to my fake fireplace. So it was kind of of a piece with the fake fireplace. It was like a fake elephant and the fake wood. I would walk by it and I think of my friend and I laugh.

Sally Libby:
Now for me, that decides it. If a gift makes you think of a friend and laugh, I think you should keep it.

Ginger Thomson:
It's not the only gift I have from this friend. There are gifts from this friend scattered all over my life.

Michael Small:
I think that changes it. I might go over to the Ganem side of things and say, if you got other things and it broke, this was the sign that it's time to let go. Can you believe I'm saying that?

Mark Ganem:
There's another point to make, which is is a not small object. I save a lot of things that are flat and you don't have to look at them for 30 or 40 years and then you just do and it's fun. But if it's something that you have to walk by every day...

Ginger Thomson:
But there's something kind of liberating about beginning to love something that's ugly because it's not about the thing anymore. That makes it a little challenging for me.

Michael Small:
I guess we'll just throw it back to you, Ginger, at this moment, now that you've discussed it, you've shared it, which way are you leaning?

Ginger Thomson:
I'm leaning on keeping it, which wasn't what I expected.

Michael Small:
If just talking about it can change your mind, then maybe you were meant to keep it. And I promise when we come to visit, I'll accidentally knock it over and then you'll have to decide again.

Mark Ganem:
That'd be a lovely holiday tradition, actually.

Michael Small:
Speaking of lovely, Mark Ganem, what do you have to share with us that you have saved and are considering getting rid of?

Mark Ganem:
There's a little sign on a very surprisingly thick piece of wood that says, I love you, and then below it in parentheses says, There I said it.

Sally Libby:
Aw. That's very sweet in a words painted on wood kind of way. Who gave you that?

Mark Ganem:
A lovely adorable sister, Debbie gave that to me a couple of years ago. One thing about our family is it was very difficult if not impossible for any of us to say I love you to the other person. I remember one time a therapist told me to try it out on my mom. So after a Christmas visit, I was leaving and I said, I love you mom. And she said, Just give me a call when you get home, make sure you got home safe. So that was...

Sally Libby:
Not exactly what you were hoping to hear.

Michael Small:
The love language is, you know, not. So the point was that my sister decided when she had children that she would unabashedly tell them that she loved them all the time. And now it doesn't bother her. It doesn't make her cringe at all. So she gave me that. I didn't hang it up. It's been sitting in my living room for as long as I've had it. And it's kind of... Stuff was piled on it. You couldn't see it. But the thing that kind of bugs me in a lot of ways, because I don't know what you do with this thing. Like if I hung this up and like the exterminator came in, is it for him? It didn't make sense. Like I don't want him to think that I had any sort of untoward feelings toward him. It confuses me. See, here's the thing about this gift that makes me want to get rid of it is that its value is only in the giving because you give it to someone and it makes sense because you're saying something to them. But then once they have it, it's illogical after that.

Michael Small:
I think we need someone with a lot of psychological insight to comment on that one. Eric, what do you think?

Eric Weiner:
Well, it's a therapist told me, since my father really, I don't think I ever heard him say those words. And the therapist had the suggestion very similar to say like, you know, you can make light of it at the end of a phone call and just say, I love you, dad. And you could say, I love you too. So I tried that and there was a long silence and he said, if you are trying to blackmail me into saying, I love you, I really do not appreciate that. So I think maybe therapists should stop suggesting that you make people say this. I mean, I think he loved me. He couldn't help that, but he was not into saying that.

Michael Small:
You'd be in favor of enjoying that gift and then letting it go.

Eric Weiner:
I think the idea of having it and you don't have to show it makes it more personal and private in a way.

Michael Small:
Ginger, what's your take?

Ginger Thomson:
I think I'm in that camp. Keep it and don't show it. But maybe you could paint something on the wood on the other side.

Mark Ganem:
That's an interesting idea. I should add that she gave it to me and what she said was, this is a joke. That I'm giving this to you because we had this conversation, I thought it would be funny. I don't think she expected me to treasure it or to display it for the exterminator and the guy who cleans out the toilets.

Michael Small:
I'm interested that Mark has so many exterminators visiting him. And he doesn't love any of them. The interesting thing is we have something in common, which is that we both have sisters named Debbie. And my sister named Debbie has really a strong hankering for any type of thing you can hang on your wall that has words on it. There are so many expressions on her walls. And I do want to give you another option, Mark, should you choose, I would send you the money to ship that to my sister Debbie.

Mark Ganem:
Gosh.

Ginger Thomson:
There you go.

Mark Ganem:
You think that she would genuinely appreciate it?

Sally Libby:
I think that's a Debbie sort of treasure. Michael's sister loves everybody. Including the exterminator.

Michael Small:
But I also think the other option that Ginger said of painting something on the back like I hate you, and then you can put that up when I walk in.

Mark Ganem:
I don't really hate you, Michael.

Michael Small:
Thank you. I have a good elephant you could put on there.

Mark Ganem:
Yeah.

Michael Small:
Mark, have you moved forward at all or are you still stuck?

Mark Ganem:
I think what's getting in the way is my utter and complete laziness that it's so much easier just to keep it. I get tired even thinking of writing something on the back, although Ginger, I think that's a wonderful idea. I don't know. It is probably going to stay.

Michael Small:
Because I am significantly older than you, I am thinking of that end of the road that is coming up at some point. I guess somebody will just throw out that sign for you when you get to the end of the road.

Mark Ganem:
That's a lovely thought. And I'm going to embrace it after our conversation. I might not get out of bed tomorrow.

Michael Small:
While we're having lovely thoughts, think it's time to go to Eric. You had a holiday ritual that you were going to mention, I believe.

Eric Weiner:
Yes. It's a Hanukkah party tradition. Have you ever done a Yankee swap? Does that sound like a familiar game to you?

Mark Ganem:
Yes, absolutely.

Sally Libby:
How does a Yankee swap work? I don't remember.

Eric Weiner:
You, everyone brings a gift. It used to be with a price limit, like $3 or something like that.

Michael Small:
Now it's like $300.

Eric Weiner:
No, now they switched to bring -- something more related to your topic -- they switched this year to bring something around the house that you don't want. So it's like swapping these things that you want to throw out. See if somebody else will treasure it. So in this Yankee swap, I chose as the best of all possible, these clips. It's supposed to be a bag clip with a ladybug design. Cause I like to close almost every bag and not possibly have crumbs come out of them, very ridiculously, but it doesn't actually work. So then the question is why have I saved this? But something, I think this is like a hold onto a grudge kind of thing. Like that stupid clip that doesn't work. I'm reminded of that.

Michael Small:
You didn't get the clip though this year, did you?

Eric Weiner:
No, this year I actually like what I got. It's called Jinkies Clean All Things. It's just a screen wipe, but it is shaped as a pickle. That appeals to me.

Sally Libby:
Never throw that out.

Eric Weiner:
I wanted to tell you very much on the side of the don't throw it out side of things. My older brother, when my father died, he wanted to save absolutely everything. This dilemma of cleaning out the parents' house and then do you get a storage closet? They use his storage space in the basement of their building and he has not been able to throw out a single thing. And he's been trying to write memoir about it. He's a writer. So recently he came across a photograph that was not in any of the albums. It seemed like a very happy scene. It was my father's birthday party. My brother is looking up at him very happily. And my mother looks incredibly happy. And she looks about nine months pregnant. But then it dawned on my brother that the timing was wrong because I was born, I think, 11 months after this photo.

Sally Libby:
Wait. How does that work?

Eric Weiner:
He investigated and found out that we hadn't been told, but then he had memories to confirm it, that she had lost a full term child.

Ginger Thomson:
My gosh.

Eric Weiner:
And she was in a lot of grief. I think at that point postpartum depression wasn't a thing people understood. She used to tell me that she wanted me to be a girl and she was going to name me Elizabeth, that she named me Eric because at least she got the E, which I didn't understand as a boy. But now it's like from saving that one photograph, this whole life of a sister and her family that was lost, my brother has recovered her somewhat. Just from that one little snapshot, which she had chosen not to tape into any of the albums because she was just trying to forget this and not accept this, which doesn't work.

Mark Ganem:
Wow.

Eric Weiner:
So that just seemed like, Wow, Michael, you've got the right idea. Don't throw anything out.

Michael Small:
Well, let's change that. Don't throw anything out if you have kids who will come and get it.

Eric Weiner:
Yeah. And he kept saying take stuff and I didn't want things. And I had an attitude of like, who cares? Not important. And then, wow, that was a pretty huge find really. The first time I saw the photo before he figured this out, I thought, well, I'm in it. You know, I'm in the photo. I'm included. No, I'm not.

Sally Libby:
I think your brother definitely has to keep that photo.

Michael Small:
And you have to keep the pickle washer.

Eric Weiner:
But what about the ladybug?

Sally Libby:
If it doesn't really work, why are you keeping it?

Eric Weiner:
I think kind of like with the elephant, where somehow maybe something's ugly, it starts to have more meaning. Yeah. I don't know why this I just I don't even consider throwing it out.

Mark Ganem:
Eric, can I ask you, do you fidget with it? Because that would be a really good reason to keep it.

Eric Weiner:
That would be. I don't. I I haven't picked it up.

Ginger Thomson:
What is it made of?

Eric Weiner:
It's plastic. It doesn't grip very well. And it doesn't open wide enough to put like a pretzel bag. It just doesn't do the very thing that it's its only purpose in life.

Mark Ganem:
I honestly think it might be a paperclip.

Eric Weiner:
Maybe you're right. Maybe I've just misunderstood it.

Michael Small:
This is so heartening for me because I don't think I'd have any trouble throwing that out. In fact, I found a wooden dreidel, for those who don't know, that's the top you spin on Hanukkah, that was so old that the Hebrew letters on it had worn off. So you would think family heirloom dreidel -- because I had it since I was five -- which means it's over 60 years old, but I'm throwing it out. No one wants a dreidel with no Hebrew letters on it.

Eric Weiner:
That's very sad, the poor dreidel.

Michael Small:
And I found a plastic dreidel from the same era and nobody's going to see the value in that.

Sally Libby:
This is a breakthrough moment. Maybe, Mike, you'll actually throw things out in 2025. I wouldn't get your hopes too high because if we  transition to what I did save, I have these 76 holiday cards and letters, which is not even the bulk of my correspondence. I've actually saved every letter I ever received and I've saved cards if they had something special about them. Not just a card with someone's name in it. All those cards that Mark sent me with just his name in them are gone.

Mark Ganem:
The death threats?

Michael Small:
When we talk about the value of saving cards,I don't know if all of you realize, do we have any guesses of when people started sending holiday cards?

Mark Ganem:
I'm going to say Victorian England.

Michael Small:
Okay. Eric, anything?

Eric Weiner:
I'm going to go with that because Natalie, my wife and I started reading Trollope and he invented the post office box and he was so excited about it. And in his novels, people send things to each other and he makes a big deal out of that. So that makes me think that before Trollope people didn't have, it was harder to send a card.

Michael Small:
Sally, what about you? When do you think the first greeting cards were sent?

Sally Libby:
1774.

Michael Small:
Why then?

Sally Libby:
It just sounded like a good time to get cards going on.

Michael Small:
Before a revolution, you need some cards.

Sally Libby:
Absolutely.

Michael Small:
Well, that's not correct. I'm going to tell you that the ancient Egyptians sent cards on papyrus. And that the Chinese sent holiday greetings during the New Year because, of course, they've had papers since 100 AD. But the first cards started to catch on -- I did a little research -- in the 1400s with Valentine's Day cards. And the first ever Valentine, this is courtesy of Google, was written by Charles the Duke of Orleans while he was imprisoned in the Tower of London. And that Valentine is in the British Museum. You kind of already guessed when the first Christmas card was. 1843 in England was when the first Christmas card was sent. And interestingly, related fact, in 1840 was the first postage stamp, apparently, so that made it easier to mail them. Just a few more dates to give you some background of how important it is that I save these cards. The first greeting card business was in Boston in the US in 1856. The Victorians over in England got it to it before us. And the American Greeting Card Company, which you are so familiar with, which is a huge company, got started in 1906. Here I've got these cards and in a certain way, they are too private to share, at least many of them. Have any of you saved any cards at all?

Ginger Thomson:
Yeah, I've saved a lot. I'd say more than 76.

Michael Small:
More than 76?

Ginger Thomson:
From various years and various people. You know, when you have children, your friends send pictures of their children, and I have a bunch of those. Kind of like a box that's a photo album in a way.

Michael Small:
Mark, have you saved any cards or letters?

Mark Ganem:
I probably have every letter that was ever sent to me.

Ginger Thomson:
Yeah, me too.

Michael Small:
There you go. I'm not the only one.

Mark Ganem:
There aren't that many. I didn't get a lot of letters, but I definitely, I would never throw away a letter. So for cards specifically, there are two reasons why I might save a card. Of course, if someone wrote something very nice. But like Ginger, I have all my friends who have children, I save those because I like to see them grow up.

Ginger Thomson:
Yeah, nice.

Michael Small:
Now, Eric, what about you? Do you have holiday cards or holiday letters?

Eric Weiner:
I never used to save them. But when Natalie, my wife and I reconnected and got together, I got a big box and started saving everything.

Ginger Thomson:
That's sweet.

Eric Weiner:
So to me it was a significant change in me.

Michael Small:
Now you've got this box that you're collecting things. What do you plan to do with it? Are you going to give it to your children? Are you going to say when I go it goes with me?

Eric Weiner:
I don't know. It's a really good question. You know, I'm divorced and so it's a somewhat painful subject for the kids, this love affair. I don't think they would have any problem throwing it out.

Michael Small:
Will you go through it the way I went through the holiday cards and plan to go through the rest? Do you think you ever will?

Eric Weiner:
I have gone through sometimes because it's just so, it makes me feel so good. And now it's so stuffed, but I do think like, I can go through that.

Michael Small:
I'm a person who can help you because you buy these plastic bins at Staples. They're not expensive. You just have lots of space to throw more in. Well, when I looked at my holiday cards and I divided them by type, these are the types that came up with. There were 17 homemade cards, 11 of kids' photos, the way you said. And that means I only saved the ones that mattered to me, I guess. 16 conventional cards that were somewhat serious, five conventional cards that were very funny, 15 cards that reminded me of past times, something I never would have remembered. And then there were eight newsletters, which is those family newsletters that tell you the whole story. Of those two were from my friend Lorraine, who really sends great family newsletters that fill you in on a lot of stuff. The other six were between Sally and me. We wrote fake newsletters to each other. Full of lies about our families.

Sally Libby:
That was fun.

Michael Small:
I don't want to shock you, but I found five cards and some holiday related objects that do not have value for me. I don't even know why I saved them. So I actually plan to throw them away. Here's something that will be very easy to toss. It's the program for the holiday concert at our high school in 1973. I was in the string quartet and we played My Heart Ever Faithful. I find it interesting that the rock ensemble played Feel Like Makin' Love while the singers did the Messiah. A little bit of something for everybody. But speaking of something for everybody, in every one of those categories, there is at least one thing from Sally Libby. Going back to those newsletters, Sally and I thought these were the funniest things ever. We thought we were hysterical and I just couldn't wait to read them again. And, boy, first of all, they're not funny anymore. They were funny in parts, but those parts are so childish, we could never share them on a podcast. I did one that was every member of my family talking about their life in the voice of each family member. Sally, you do have a little excerpt just to give people an idea of one where you wrote about your mom and your dad. Would you like to share those with us?

Sally Libby:
Yes. About dear old dad, Jackson Welsh. The family is awfully proud of him this year. He has embezzled more company funds than ever before. About dear old mom, Barbara Welsh. We've thought of grounding her, but every time we try sending her to her room, she always whines and says, can I just cook dinner for you? And we always give in to her. That's the problem right there. My mom is spoiled rotten.

Michael Small:
Those are the kinds of things we wrote about our family. Those were the more gentle ones. And then Sally, I believe you have a little excerpt from one I sent you, which was about my life in New York that I sent around 1980 or 81. To understand this, you have to know that Sally and I worked on a literary magazine in high school called Mindscape.

Sally Libby:
So Michael writes, I've started a little literary magazine in our neighborhood called Slumscape. The guy on the corner turns out to be a real Robert Frost. He writes, give me your fucking wallet or I'll break your fucking head. I told him I'd have to make a few editorial changes to his submission. Then I offered him my wallet as a consolation. That was what we put in our newsletters. Sally, do I save our newsletters?

Sally Libby:
If they're not funny, let's chuck them.

Michael Small:
Okay, I'll try. Now on to the next one. I saved some conventional cards. I was shocked to find that my English teacher wrote me a poem in a holiday card. His name's Paul Janeczko. He later became a full-time poet. He also wrote children's books. And it's relevant to know that he was the advisor for our literary magazine, which we called Mindscape. Sally, do you want to read the poem he wrote me?

Sally Libby:
Okay. Although it's true-ish that you're Jewish. Do not feel completely bluish. For underneath Janeczko's house, you wouldn't hear a single mouse. But visions of Mindscape danced around and hopes of peace for small abound.

Michael Small:
Yay.

Mark Ganem:
That's very nice.

Michael Small:
Yeah, I don't really want to let go of that one because it made me feel so great that he wrote me a card. So I think I'm probably going to hold on to that. Any objections?

Mark Ganem:
No, definitely hold on.

Eric Weiner:
I say. Yeah, you must.

Sally Libby:
Even I think you should keep that one.

Michael Small:
Okay, so I will hold on to that. Now, in the homemade category, one of the ongoing jokes with Sally and me, and with many people I knew since I grew up in a town that was 99.9 % Christian, was the oddity of me being Jewish. And you picked that up from Mr. Janeczko's poem too. Sally and I were always laughing about my Jewishness. So she made me homemade cards in high school. Each one included a poem about my type of holiday celebration. Here's one of them, which Sally gave me exactly 50 years ago. It's not a papyrus, it's on green construction paper with orange letters pasted on it that say, Happy Hanukkah. Sally, could you read your poetic masterpiece for us?

Sally Libby:
So remember, I was only like, a junior in high school. 'Twas the night before Hanukkah and all around the open Torah. Jews danced and lit the golden menorah. Bubbalas were all snug in their bed with ethnic wishes, dreaming to find in their dreidels ground beef knishes. Love, Sally.

Michael Small:
That definitely is a keeper too. If only for the image of ground beef knishes inside the dreidels.

Sally Libby:
I didn't really know much about your culture, I guess.

Michael Small:
You did a fine job of imagining it and I'm keeping it. I think the funniest card that I found in the batch is this one. It shows a picture of Santa. He's leaning back on his sleigh like he's on a psychiatrist's couch and it says, "I give and I give." So the text inside says, Analysis of the Holiday Season. I love this card. It comes from my friend Tim. Thank you, Tim. To help us decide the fate of the whole batch, I want to share just two more. Here's one from my mom. She had gone through some times with me when I really didn't know what the hell I was doing and I was kind of a mess in the late 80s. That's why I want to give that as a little background. This was a standard Hanukkah card that had a menorah on the front and inside it said, Happy Hanukkah. And Sally, would you read what my mother wrote inside that card?

Sally Libby:
Yes, I will. It's written in the form of a poem. Here it is. Ups and downs, highs and lows, decisiveness interfered with by the multitude of choices to be made, concern and consternation, a feeling that it's there for the taking, that elusive sense of achievement. Which path to follow? How to realize accomplishments and include integrity. Groping, reaching out, but always propelled by loyalty, justice, compassion. Michael.

Michael Small:
And then she wrote Mother 12, 11, 90.

Ginger Thomson:
Wow. Pretty awesome.

Mark Ganem:
That's lovely.

Michael Small:
That's certainly more than I deserved.

Ginger Thomson:
You can't throw that out. Speaking as a mother who's never written anything quite so profound.

Michael Small:
The fact that it was about me and not about her is really interesting. Like she was really thinking of what I was going through and how I was struggling.

Eric Weiner:
Yes, very beautiful.

Michael Small:
Now, speaking of her, this is going back probably again to the 1960s, somewhere between 67 and 68. I'm holding up a block print. While everyone did a Christmas tree and baby Jesus. I did a Jewish star, a menorah, a present and a dreidel. And I made this card and I have one that is to my mom and each one of the four children has signed the card. And then on the back, of course, with an artist's palette, it says a Michael Small original. The interesting thing is I happen to have some blank copies that I saved of that card. And I'm thinking the solution is that I send these this year.

Ginger Thomson:
Absolutely. Those are awesome.

Michael Small:
It has to be to special people. You may be getting a holiday card.

Mark Ganem:
That's a great idea.

Michael Small:
So I know that was a lot about Hanukkah and we need a little Christmas right this very minute. As I mentioned earlier, I consulted one more expert. She has saved more Christmas related items than all of us combined. She couldn't join us today because she was busy with her job. Actually, she's a teacher in the Design and Technology Master's program at the Parsons School of Design. But she did find time to talk with me separately about some treasures that Santa brought her via her parents. Here's what our friend Louisa Campbell told me.

Louisa Campbell:
I saved a coat that is too big for me. I've had it for probably 25, 30 years. I think it's only because I actually have identified it as a Christmas present from my father. I just, can't throw it out. One year he asked me what I wanted for Christmas and I said a coat, but I'm going to buy it and I'll just tell you how much it cost. I bought it too big for me because I thought I'd be wearing lots of heavy sweaters under it. Not only do I not wear heavy sweaters under it, I don't actually wear it. And I keep it because my father's gone, he's dead. And I just feel like he got it for me, even though he didn't even pick it out. If he was still alive, I probably would have thrown it out.

Michael Small:
You've never worn it?

Louisa Campbell:
No, I've worn it a few times over the last 25 years. I probably have worn it five or 10 times. After I said I would tell the story of the coat for I Couldn't Throw It Out, I actually wore it. It was a very snowy night and we were doing the visit with Mr. and Mrs. Claus at the firehouse where I volunteer. It kept me totally warm. I felt very well dressed, but the only reason I wore it was because I was planning to talk about it with you.

Michael Small:
Some good came out of this. Did you and your dad have a good relationship?

Louisa Campbell:
Yes.

Michael Small:
Do you have a lot of things from him?

Louisa Campbell:
He thought it was important to give his daughters perfume. So he would give us like this real kind of old fashioned perfume. I have some of it still in its boxes with its plastic wrap.

Michael Small:
I don't think it's going to smell too good anymore.

Louisa Campbell:
You think I should get rid of that too?

Michael Small:
Are you ever going to wear it?

Louisa Campbell:
Probably not. I mean, we were just all as a family in Cologne, Germany, and there's a famous, you know, the original Cologne perfume. And I think they might've gotten me some for Christmas. I don't want it. I don't need it. I definitely don't need like four bottles of perfume since I don't even wear it.

Michael Small:
Going back to the holidays, do you keep holiday decorations?

Louisa Campbell:
Yes. I have all of the Christmas tree ornaments that I ever bought or was given. And now I also have three boxes of my mother's Christmas tree decorations.

Michael Small:
Can you fit them all on one tree?

Louisa Campbell:
No, I haven't even looked at hers. That's another thing of theirs that I have to deal with.

Michael Small:
Do you have other things other than Christmas tree ornaments that are decorations for the holidays?

Louisa Campbell:
There's a creche, a very nice creche that I think she had as a child that's wooden and it's got like all the wooden animals and but I've never set it up or anything. But my daughter is somewhat religious. So I'm thinking she might want it.

Michael Small:
You know, I think you may have accumulated more things than I did.

Louisa Campbell:
Yeah. yeah. I think I do.

Michael Small:
Do you think by next Christmas, are you planning to have anything given away?

Louisa Campbell:
I hope so. At this time of year when you're supposed to be buying gifts for people, all I can think of is I just want to get rid of stuff. I don't want to give anybody anything. I don't want to get anything.

Michael Small:
Except that coat.

Louisa Campbell:
Except that coat. This accumulation of objects doesn't pay. It doesn't pay off.

Michael Small:
So those are the words of wisdom from Louisa. You can either keep her advice in mind or take a different route because I want to ask the four of you for your final guidance. What should I do with my holiday cards? Should I select a few to save? Should I toss them all? And I'm gonna start with Ginger.

Ginger Thomson:
You know, sometimes I think it's really good to throw those kinds of things out. I think it clears some space in our hearts or something and makes room for whatever new can come in. So I'm gonna say throw them out.

Michael Small:
Okay, with a few exceptions like the one for my mother and the ones I'm sending to you. Okay. I'm going to Mark next.

Mark Ganem:
I'm going to say you should keep them. I think you should keep them all. Probably for a lot of people, you are the archivists in their life. So it goes beyond just you. It goes to your family and, your friends, obviously. So I say keep them out of the way because then you'll be able to discover them later.

Michael Small:
Okay, well thank you for that. Obviously I like that advice. But Eric, what do you think?

Eric Weiner:
I've been thinking about Proust. Natalie and I, were trying to read Proust aloud to each other, struggling. And Michael sent me this beautiful email pitching it to me, like, you know, stick with it, because every single detail, he says, is paid off. You would think these are just these little details. And I asked him, well, what translation are you reading? None, I'm reading it in French. So I just think that you're someone who really treasures the details. Given my own experiences with my brother and me, I think you should save everything. I think it's because you treasure everything. I think that's a beautiful thing.

Michael Small:
Okay. Well, thank you so much. I love hearing what all of you said. And thank you so much, Eric, for bringing up Proust, because you know, that's one of my things that I love. And I might do some sort of compromise where I look and make sure that I care about everything in this batch and I'll get rid of anything that I don't care about so much. Sally, do you approve of that?

Sally Libby:
Well, I know I'm supposed to be the one who convinces you to get rid of everything. But since this is the first time you got rid of more than one thing, I'm going to give you a pass and support your plan.

Michael Small:
See, now that's the holiday spirit right there. Thank you. I appreciate it. So that's our attempt to throw out our holiday treasures. If you have holiday treasures packed away somewhere, we hope this will inspire you to get them out and look at them. It’s a perfect activity when you’ve opened the Christmas and Hanukkah presents. Maybe you’ll find something you treasure because it’s so ugly.  Or you’ll get a reminder of someone you loved. Or you’ll find things you can reuse. And – I don’t want to sound crazy – but you could even find something to throw out. Sally, I believe you have something on our Hanukkah Christmas wish list that you'd like to share.

Sally Libby:
Yes. If anyone wants to give us the best gift, go to Apple Podcasts and give a five star rating to I Couldn't Throw It Out. They are ecumenical stars, so they work for everyone. Or just go to our website and click the reviews button at the top of the page and write a review. That's at throwitoutpodcast.com.

Michael Small:
On our website for this episode, you will also see photos of every treasure we discussed, including that useless clip that looks like a ladybug in case you want to get one of your own. You can see all of this at throwitoutpodcast.com. By the way, if you're someone who enjoys live theater, keep your eye out for a one-man show called Charlie Cat's Sonneteer, which is written and performed by Eric Wiener, who joined us today on this podcast. It's absolutely wonderful, and it's coming this April to the Solo Festival by the Barrow Group in New York City. Ginger, Eric, Mark – we are so happy that the three of you joined us today to decide the fate of your holiday treasures.Thank you all so much.

Ginger Thomson:
Thanks guys.

Eric Weiner:
Happy holidays.

Mark Ganem:
Bye.

[Theme song begins]

I Couldn't Throw It Out theme song
Performed by Don Rauf, Boots Kamp and Jen Ayers
Written by Don Rauf and Michael Small
Produced and arranged by Boots Kamp

Look up that stairway
To my big attic
Am I a hoarder
Or am I a fanatic?

Decades of stories
Memories stacked
There is a redolence
Of some irrelevant facts

Well, I couldn't throw it out
I had to scream and shout
It all seems so unjust
But still I know I must
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out
Before I turn to dust
I've got to throw it out

Well I couldn't throw it out
Oh, I couldn't throw it out

I'll sort through my possessions
In these painful sessions
I guess this is what it's about
The poems, cards and papers
The moldy musty vapors
I just gotta sort it out

Well I couldn't throw it out
Well I couldn't throw it out
Oh, I couldn't throw it out
I couldn't throw it out

[Theme song ends]

END TRANSCRIPT